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Parking fine but have paid ticket, Took too ling to buy ticket?
Thingywall
post Sat, 19 Sep 2020 - 18:34
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Hi all,

Parked in a pay and display car park in Blackburn managed by Civil Enforcement Ltd and paid for two hours parking, driver just received a parking charge for £100 (£60) if paid in 14 days).

The only thing can see wrong is that driver arrived in the car park at 12:07 (according to CEL, they must have cameras) and didn't pay (for 3 hours) until 12:18 although driver stayed in the car park for less than the two hours paid for.

When arriving at the car park driver didn't feel well, drank some water and waited with car until feeling better then bought the ticket, as noted above driver left the car park less than two hours later.

Is it worth driver appealing this or is it just going to end up paying the full £100 later!

Driver would be grateful for any assistance.

The driver

This post has been edited by Thingywall: Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 09:58
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post Sat, 19 Sep 2020 - 18:34
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ostell
post Sat, 19 Sep 2020 - 21:23
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Edit your post so that the identity of the driver cannot be inferred, use "the driver ......" etc.

Post up the Notice to Keeper your received, suitably redacted but leave dates. If you can get photos of the signs.
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Jlc
post Sat, 19 Sep 2020 - 21:27
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I believe CEL do not currently bother with even attempting POFA compliance = easy appeal. Post the NtK as suggested...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Thingywall
post Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 09:07
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The parking ticket started at 12:18 and was valid until 15:18.

Entered the car park, according to the APNR at 12:07 and left at 14:54 which was less than 3 hours.

Attached a copy of the PCN received on the 19th September.

This post has been edited by Thingywall: Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 09:58
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Thingywall
post Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 09:19
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I have read that a posted parking notice should be received within 14 days, this notice was not received until 39 days after the incident date?
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unicorn47
post Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 09:49
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Entered the car park, according to the APNR at 12:07 and left at 14:54 which was less than 2 hours.

The car was in the car park for 2hrs 47m. Did you pay for 2hrs or 3hrs.


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Thingywall
post Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 09:59
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QUOTE (unicorn47 @ Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 10:49) *
Entered the car park, according to the APNR at 12:07 and left at 14:54 which was less than 2 hours.

The car was in the car park for 2hrs 47m. Did you pay for 2hrs or 3hrs.

Apologies, paid for 3 hours, 12:18 to 15:18, have amended the previous posts
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TMC Towcester
post Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 10:52
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You exceeded the 'grace period' in which to buy a ticket: I assume this is where they're coming from.
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Thingywall
post Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 11:38
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QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 11:52) *
You exceeded the 'grace period' in which to buy a ticket: I assume this is where they're coming from.


Yes I am presuming that is what the 'offence' was, is this defensible? Made sure the car park was vacated by 14:00 so 3 hours was not exceeded.

Possible defence is that that the company has not lost anything as the car was on their car park for less than the time paid for?
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ostell
post Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 12:32
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Is this a hire car? If not then:

Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc


Do not use if a hire or lease car.

How about the reverse of the NTK as well as the front is incapable of holding a keeper liable, apart form the date.

This post has been edited by ostell: Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 12:33
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Jlc
post Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 13:51
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QUOTE (Thingywall @ Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 12:38) *
is this defensible?

Follow Ostell's appeal (subject to the questions). They will continue to pursue you on the grace before paying / time stayed because they can.

But they can't ignore the lack of keeper liability so will either throw the towel in early or you'll win at POPLA.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 13:51


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Thingywall
post Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 15:41
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Thanks Ostell,

It is not a lease or hire car,

The back of the PCN is attached.

Thanks all for your assistance.

This post has been edited by Thingywall: Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 17:07
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Jlc
post Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 16:38
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QUOTE (Thingywall @ Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 16:41) *
does this make a difference?

No (for the appeal) - but did you want to tell the whole world this? But yes as they could use this information at court.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 17:06


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Thingywall
post Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 17:04
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Thanks Jlc, post edited.

This post has been edited by Thingywall: Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 17:16
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Thingywall
post Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 18:34
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Looking at the online appeal to see if this is better than by post as keeper

This post has been edited by Thingywall: Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 18:53
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ostell
post Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 18:42
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Edit again, sensibly. The driver drove and parked, the keeper received the notice and is now handling matters.

They failed POFA on the reverse.


Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. You have also failed to give notice of of keeper liability as required by section 9 (2) (f)

You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc


This post has been edited by ostell: Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 18:47
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Thingywall
post Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 19:01
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Thanks Ostell, an appeal will be in the post tomorrow and update on the response.

Not worth mentioning that the ticket bought on the day was for 3 hours and the vehicle was parked there for less than 3 hours at this stage?



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ostell
post Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 19:17
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They don't care
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Jlc
post Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 19:27
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Indeed - you may think they would be reasonable but they only care about you paying...

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 19:28


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Thingywall
post Sun, 20 Sep 2020 - 19:40
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Thanks both, will post appeal letter tomorrow
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