Camden PCN - online Pay-by-phone malfunctioning Options

[NotFair]

Hi all,

I've received a Camden (windscreen) PCN for 'parking without paying'.

The reason is - the RingGo website simply didn't work. I have taken screenshots of multiple attempts at paying, including one attempt where it seems to be processing a payment, but all ended in an error message.

I had to rush off to work hence couldn't move the vehicle or park it anywhere else.

I was wondering if anyone knows any examples/cases where a challenge has been made due to an IT error like this? Tried a forum search but didn't get very far.

I'll post up the PCN pics later on today, but any ideas in the interim would be very welcome.

Thank you

This post has been edited by NotFair: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 14:01

[Advertisement]

[stamfordman]

Are you registered with Ringgo or was this a first attempt?

I find the Ringgo phone app faultless but sounds like you weren't using it.

Ringgo's customer service is good so I would go through their help system and register an enquiry about this.

[NotFair]

Are you registered with Ringgo or was this a first attempt?

I find the Ringgo phone app faultless but sounds like you weren't using it.

Ringgo's customer service is good so I would go through their help system and register an enquiry about this.

I am registered and use it regularly, but always through the mobile website (m.myringgo.co.uk).

I will enquire with Ringgo about what was going on...hopefully they can provide some audit records that I could put in my informal reps? I get the feeling Camden are going to say an IT problem is nothing to do with them and won't budge, so any supporting documentation is good I suppose...

[stamfordman]

Yes, Ringgo should shed some light on it, and in any case you'll be appealing with some evidence to Camden. They will probably reject though on the basis that you should have found somewhere else to park.

I would use the app. It's dead easy to use and all you have to remember is the three digit card security code if you don't have the registered card with you. The only other problem Ive found is one lots of other people have, which is having 2 or more cars on the app and paying for the wrong one. I've done that twice recently but realised and paid for the right one, and ringgo have refunded the wrong ones both times with no fuss.

[cp8759]

If in a paid parking place the payment facilities are out of order, there is no requirement to park elsewhere and you can park for free. We've seen appeals won on this basis where a pay & display machine is out of order, can't see an reason why this would be any different.

[stamfordman]

If in a paid parking place the payment facilities are out of order, there is no requirement to park elsewhere and you can park for free. We've seen appeals won on this basis where a pay & display machine is out of order, can't see an reason why this would be any different.

Yes, but here there are several ways to pay Ringgo. Anyway, OP must appeal.

[Mad Mick V]

Two points---I presume the parking bay was PBP only otherwise there is a problem (a GSV of the bay would be helpful). Second --evidence!--this won't get over the first hurdle without some documentation/screen shots of the glitch.

Camden parking services and technology are like oil and water so the onus is on the OP to convince them. My opening remark would be that I had a legitimate expectation that the system would be robust and could deal with my request.

Against that, it was rash to leave the vehicle without payment.

Mick

[NotFair]

Thanks for the replies.

Yes, it was PBP. GSV here: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5216085,-...3312!8i6656

I do have screenshots of multiple attempts at various intervals over a couple of hours. Each attempt got through various stages (one appeared to have taken the payment after entering my CVC) before being met with the same error message "The page you requested has expired and is no longer available." I cleared cookies, tried another phone, everything.

You are right to say I had a reasonable expectation that it would work. If I didn't, I would never have driven in - I'd have taken public transport. I didn't park with the intention of not paying. I will try and make that clear in informal reps.

This post has been edited by NotFair: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 16:21

[Mad Mick V]

OP----if you work at GOSH that might provide mitigation.

Mick

[NotFair]

Hello everyone,

Just wanted to update on my post above, and request some help.

I tried to submit informal reps online before the deadline and....you can't make this up......the website failed!

I have taken a number of screenshots to prove, with the error messages etc.

Unsurprisingly, an NTO has landed, and now my only option is formal reps.

I plan to prepare something along the lines of multiple IT failings (Pay by phone, and now the Camden council website), and hope they will relent on the basis that not one, but two of their systems have failed in this instance.

Here is the NTO - I was wondering if anyone can spot anything else I can state to strengthen the appeal?

Thank you

[Mr Meldrew]

You may know that council’s are not obliged to uphold penalty charges on the basis a contravention occurred, in fact that would not be the correct basis at all as they have a duty to consider all the circumstances including mitigation and state why the penalty should nevertheless be paid (if that were the case).

Evidence of the considerable problems you encountered and apologies for your part in the matter are your duties in my opinion. The Council in return have to be seen to have properly considered your representations. Merely claiming to have considered may not be enough especially if their response would appear to the ordinary observer as inadequate/formulaic/inflexible or otherwise not reasonable, and councils have a duty to be reasonable when dealing with the public.

[NotFair]

Hi all,

Thanks for the help so far.

I have received a NOR essentially stating I should have paid either with an on-street machine (I am sure these have been phased out? I see signs everywhere saying use RingGo only, although the GSV from Feb 18 shows a machine across the road) or called and spoken to a RingGo operator. I dispute this second point specifically - the text system wasn't working either, and calling the automated line just resulted in telling me to text them!

The other thing mentioned is a successful session activation is confirmed by SMS, and that I should have known this as a RingGo user.

A 50% discounted period was re-offered (now expired), and an instruction to appeal to London Tribunals if I want to take it further.

I am on a mobile at the moment so can't scan and upload in full, but will try to do so later.

Would appreciate your thoughts on next best actions? I still feel unsatisfied with their reply. So much emphasis is placed on RingGo by them that they (I feel) have a duty to ensure it functions correctly, and it is reasonable for a driver to expect this.

[cp8759]

Can't really say until we see the NoR.

[Incandescent]

As you've received the NtO, the discount option has gone, so it is important you take them all the way to London Tribunals if necessary as they really are a load of venal and rapacious charlatans. Everywhere you go councils want you to use PbP, (the only option in Barnet), yet when there are problems they behave disgracefully, as here. There is no difference here to ticket machines being all out-of-order.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 18:47

[NotFair]

Sorry for the delay. As promised:





I have not posted the other bits of paper which are the London Tribunals appeal documents.

Thanks for your help!

[DancingDad]

You are running it tight to deadline to register an appeal with adjudicators, no point in paying up at full rate, adjudication will cost no more if you lose.
Not 100% on a win here but far better then evens IMO.

Could you confirm, were there any machines for cash payment ?
You say you park there regularly, check, take photos of signs and where machines were if any are on older streetview scenes but are now missing.
To me, the "you could have used cash" depends on machines being there, are they?
The sign the council put on the NOR suggest that phone is the only way of paying and nothing suggests that the machine option is anything but fiction.
That is a winner if you can show that. Adjudicator is likely to take the statement on face value, you need evidence to show that cash payment was not an option, not signed, not obviously available.

Even if cash payment is possible, PBP is so endemic nowadays that the old reasoning of if machine not working parking is free (not strictly true) can, IMO, be extended.
Certainly people will likely have an expectation to be able to pay and the means of doing so (phone), if that fails due to a system error, why should the motorist be penalised.
And it does come back to the restriction sign saying Pay by Phone... no other option.

[hcandersen]

No photos; no PCN; no reps;

OP apparently takes matters to their time limits and beyond giving themselves no margin for error (did not submit challenge- website not working(for28 days??)- missed NOR discount AND submitted reps on day 28 AND hasn't yet registered an appeal on day 21 of 28 - there's a constant theme here it appears)

OP, register your appeal NOW.
Grounds
Contravention did not occur

Details to follow.

And then we can look at arguments in more detail. Otherwise you'll revert to type and miss the appeal deadline without good reason- sorry if this sounds harsh but it's borne out by the track record.

The timeline is important here, so think hard.
At what time did you park? What evidence do you have of your attempts to pay?

And as for their comment 'there is a paid for ....on the street' this is not only meaningless, it's disingenuous. The traffic sign makes no mention of machines, where they might be etc..therefore a motorist CANNOT with any confidence:
a. Traipse up and down looking for something which they don't know is there, or
b. Even if they found one, know that its tariff applied.

I would certainly zoom-in on this nonsense in any appeal.

By the way, where was the machine relative to where you parked and is it within the same parking place?

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 13:20

[NotFair]

Thanks for your replies and help.

I accept the criticism! Usually on the ball with these, and mostly don't need to ask for forum help, but the rest of life has gotten in the way of dealing with this one promptly.

I've never done London Tribunals before so didn't realise you can register without details. With respect to website - no it probably wasn't faulty for the entire 28 days, but it certainly was on the days I tried, and I have screenshot evidence of this.

Other questions:
1) Multiple screenshots of evidence of attempts to pay, all of which I sent with my reps. The screenshots are of various stages during the payment process. Once I'd used different devices etc., I knew I would need to start taking screenshots to prove I really did make multiple best-effort attempts to make a payment. Some of the screenshots even imply that a payment has been processed before throwing up an error message. In terms of evidence of attempts to pay - I think I really do have this.
2) I think there is a machine somewhere across the road (only noticed it on GSV). I am going to check again today where the machine actually is, and if it's operational. I was and still am genuinely under the impression that they don't even use machines any more, and it's all solely PbP (have seen so many machines boarded over with instructions to use RingGo). If they do still use machines, it wasn't made clear. I wouldn't have continued my attempts if I there were instructions to use a machine - I would have just used the machine!

Would posting the PCN and reps be useful at this stage? I can do so if it is.

Thanks

[hcandersen]

if it's operational. I was and still am genuinely under the impression that they don't even use machines any more

No more freelance thinking pl.

If it's on the other side and unless YOUR sign directed you to it, then it is IRRELEVANT legally. I don't care whether it works or not, takes euros or accepts wampum, it doesn't matter.

[DancingDad]

That is the bit to focus on.
The council say you should have used a machine.

If machine isn't there, they have no case and should be an easy win.
If machine is nearby, we need to show why it was not apparent to use machine... signs, other side of road or the like.
Get the evidence and we can sort out what is needed.
Don't delay, clock is ticking and do register appeal.
Can say evidence to follow, can put in an outline, could not pay by phone, no machines available (or signage did not allow payment by machine) but include more to follow.