PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

PCN Falmouth
caught or not
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 13:16
Post #1


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6
Joined: 9 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,323



Hi, First time poster, the keeper of a car has just received a PCN from Civil Enforcement Limited for parking at a carpark at Custom House Quay in Falmouth.

Just checking to see if there is any wiggle room at all?

Basically, the car stopped for just over 21 minutes, only 2 people got out of the car to go and get some food. One of those person is local and knows the area well, never said camera's now operated in the area (no defence) so a ticket was never purchased. No one realised it was camera operated.

The car kept moving to different spaces as more favourable spots became available, i.e. as cars left the car would be moved into their spots to make it easier to finally leave, so the car kept moving (if that helps any)

PCN arrived this morning, within 7 days.

http://tinypic.com/r/avixrl/9 -
Attached Image

http://tinypic.com/r/2v1ulbq/9

A search has been done on this website for that particular spot, but nothing else relevant.

Any help greatly appreciated.

Thanks

caughtornot

This post has been edited by caught or not: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 07:07
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 16)
Advertisement
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 13:16
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
ManxRed
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 13:36
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9,284
Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Member No.: 21,992



Edit your post and refer to the person who was driving as 'the driver'.


--------------------
Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 18:28
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8,910
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



And the person that received the notice is the keeper.

OK this looks like the land is subject to byelaws of the Falmouth Harbour Commisioners. As such there can be no keeper liability under POFA as it is not relevant land.

Caught or not can you check for byelaws at that place, either visit or do a search on the internet. If byelaws are in existence then you are not paying, they can only go after the driver, who they do not know.

This post has been edited by ostell: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 18:36
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kommando
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 18:36
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,167
Joined: 6 Oct 2012
Member No.: 57,558



CEL are very easy to beat as long as the driver is not identified.

Do not ignore this as CEL are very litigious and even if beating them at claim stage is easier than most it takes time and effort.

This post has been edited by kommando: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 18:37
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
caught or not
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 19:18
Post #5


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6
Joined: 9 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,323



Thanks for the replies

Yes, the person that received the notice is the keeper.


I have found the byelaws, but not sure what I am looking for...there is specifically the following subsection...

Unauthorised parking of vehicles

42.
(1) Any person leaving a vehicle in a parking place on harbour premises shall display on that vehicle a ticket issued by the Commissioners authorising the parking of that vehicle during such time as may be specified on that ticket.

(2) A person shall not leave a vehicle in a parking place on the harbour premises for longer than the time specified on the ticket issued in respect of that vehicle.



The back of the PCN does state …...
The creditor does not know the both the name of the driver or the current address for service for the driver. We therefore invite you to pay or appeal the unpaid parking charge, or if you wee not the driver of the vehicle, to notify us of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice to the driver.

It's this 'invite you to pay' that intrigues me, what happens if I do not accept their invitation??

Thanks once again...

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cabbyman
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 19:40
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6,061
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town.
Member No.: 16,066



https://www.falmouthharbour.co.uk/wp/wp-con...FHC-Byelaws.pdf

That refers to a plan showing the extent of the area covered by byelaws. You need to try to find a copy of that plan and check if Custom House Quay comes within the scope of the byelaws. I would suggest that, looking at Google Maps, it almost certainly does but you need to get the evidence.


--------------------
Cabbyman 10 PPCs 0
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
caught or not
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 20:00
Post #7


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6
Joined: 9 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,323



Thanks cabbyman, I would also agree that that carpark in question does come under the by-laws., 2 foot the other way and the car would be in the water itself. I'll do a search for the actual pan itself.

So, assuming it is covered how does that affect me, I assume section 42 points 1 and 2, suggest that they are entitled to collect monies for vehicles parking?


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cabbyman
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 20:06
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6,061
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town.
Member No.: 16,066



They may be able to collect monies from the driver but they don't know the driver's identity. They only know the Registered Keeper.

Para 3 PoFA 2012 sched 4 defines 'relevant land' for the purposes of the Act:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9...edule/4/enacted

Byelaw land is outside of that definition.

A simple appeal from the RK to CEL will be refused but will come accompanied by a POPLA code. A full appeal to POPLA, including byelaws and not relevant land is highly likely to see CEL fail to offer evidence and POPLA accept your appeal.


--------------------
Cabbyman 10 PPCs 0
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
caught or not
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 20:18
Post #9


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6
Joined: 9 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,323



Ok, I have found this on the Falmouth Harbour Commission website (https://www.falmouthharbour.co.uk/harbour-maps/).


On the actual map showing jurisdiction (https://www.falmouthharbour.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/20-055-01-Interactive-map.pdf), there is no key, no indication of what the map is actually suggesting or indicating.

Does this help me in any way?

Thanks



sorry for sounding very dumb...

So, you are suggesting because the carpark in question is covered by the Falmouth Harbour Commissioners by-laws and Para 3 PoFA 2012 sched 4 defines 'relevant land' for the purposes of the Act as follows..

3
(1)
In this Schedule “relevant land” means any land (including land above or below ground level) other than—
(a)
a highway maintainable at the public expense (within the meaning of section 329(1) of the Highways Act 1980);
(b)
a parking place which is provided or controlled by a traffic authority;
(c )
any land (not falling within paragraph (a) or (b)) on which the parking of a vehicle is subject to statutory control.


AND

by-law land is not covered by section 3(1a) 3(1b) or 3(1c),


THEN

the PCN cannot be enforced?

Regards

This post has been edited by caught or not: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 20:20
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kommando
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 20:54
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,167
Joined: 6 Oct 2012
Member No.: 57,558



Correct, only the driver is liable as POFA 2012 does not apply to land covered by bylaws.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 20:54
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8,910
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



Correct, but all could fail if you don't edit as suggested

It's 3 (1) © that kills them.

This post has been edited by ostell: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 21:15
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sheffield Dave
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 21:53
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 89
Joined: 20 May 2013
Member No.: 62,052



For the avoidance of doubt, the PCN can still be enforced, but only against the driver (if known). The presence of bylaws prevents them from using POFA to extend liability to the keeper when the driver isn't known to them.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 06:55
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8,910
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



Do you want to write your appeal letter and post it on here for critique before you post it?



This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 07:18
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
caught or not
post Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 07:13
Post #14


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6
Joined: 9 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,323



Noted, the post has been edited, the penny suddenly dropped.

I will write up the appeal and post it here, any tips on what to write.

Something like...

the keeper of this car has received a PCN dated xxx for time xx and xx. The actual driver of the car at that given time date and time is not known to the keeper and as such the keeper cannot pass on the PCN to the driver.

Do I mention the correct paragraph and bye-laws etc etc.



If an appeal fails, is the keeper liable to their costs as well as the original £100 fine?

Thanks


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 07:29
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8,910
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



No, don't fib, it can come back to bite you on the bum

Something like:


Sirs

Ref PCN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

I am the registered keeper of the above vehicle and am in receipt of the PCN you issued. I have no liability on this matter as the area of alleged parking is land subject to byelaws and therefore is not relevant land as defined by section 3 of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to me.

There is no legal requirement for me to identify the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
caught or not
post Mon, 27 Aug 2018 - 15:49
Post #16


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6
Joined: 9 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,323



Update
----------
Just in case you are interested, the PCN was appealed and the ticket was cancelled outright.

Thanks for all your help.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Redivi
post Mon, 27 Aug 2018 - 17:48
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 2,334
Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Member No.: 96,238



For all its many faults, CEL is one of the few parking companies that will cancel Parking Notices rather than waste the motorist's time by forcing him to make a POPLA appeal
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Friday, 14th December 2018 - 08:56
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.