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£2000 of tickets - Permit expired without us knowing or being informed, Need help - have appealed but told to contact debt recovery or IAS
alfxlon
post Thu, 11 May 2017 - 15:32
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Hi Everyone,

I’d be really grateful if someone could help with this as it’s getting really stressful – 12 tickets each at £160 and mounting. I’ve trawled through the other threads to find exact answers but I’m still unclear what to.

Basically I park my car in my friend’s apartment car park (with permit displayed). My friend who owns the space is also named insured driver. Neither of us really use the car or see it that often as we both cycle or use public transport.

Anyway, I needed to use the car recently but found a load of tickets on it (from private parking management company). I had no idea what they were for so I phoned up the debt collection company who eventually told me it was because my permit had expired. We had no idea this had happened because our existing permit had no expiry date written on it. Also they never wrote to him telling him they’d expired the permit or issued him with a new one. Because my place (where vehicle is registered) is a building site at the moment I’m living at a forwarding address, all the notices came through late to me so was delayed in appealing.

Anyway for each of these tickets I get a separate correspondence. They’re now coming from a debt collection agency (TRACE) and now letters from solicitors Gladstone’s requesting payment (with increasing costs).

I wrote to the PCN company with the letter of appeal (see below) and they wrote back saying they are unable to process my appeal as my case is with one of their external debt collection agencies and I’d need to contact them. They say I can appeal through IAS (see response letter below).

My question is, what’s the best thing to do now? Should I appeal through IAS? Other options? £2000 plus seems excessive especially as they didn’t inform us or provide new permit!!

Would really appreciate any help

many thanks


<I anonymised the letter – I’m Mr C and registered Keeper. Mr S is owner of the car space and permit and insured driver on vehicle>

Dear Sir / Madam

Vehicle Registration Number: XYZ
Ticket References:
PCM Ref Date of Issue PCN ticket Description Reason later established by calling TRACE Debt recovery
PM1 07/10/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit No permit displayed
PM2 05/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM3 07/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM4 12/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM5 15/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM6 19/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM7 22/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM8 03/12/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM9 13/12/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM10 11/01/2017 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM11 17/01/2017 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM12 29/01/2017 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit

We are writing to appeal the above parking charges. Owing to the circumstances explained below we believe that the tickets have been unfairly issued because of administration issues of the parking management company (Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd) and other circumstances beyond our control.

We can confirm that ‘Mr S’ is resident owner in the building (address of building where tickets were issued managed by PCM) and owner of the parking space occupied by the vehicle (Registration XYZ). He is fully paid-up in terms of his building service charges which include financial contribution to the management of the car park and entitlement to a valid parking permit. ‘Mr C’ is the registered owner of the vehicle and we are close friends. ‘Mr S’ is a named insured driver on the vehicle (see attached evidence).

We note that all of the parking tickets except the first relate to “displaying an expired permit”. This information was only recently established (18/4/17) by contacting the debt recovery agency, TRACE as this information isn’t stated on any of the parking control notices or correspondences relating to the charges.

We can truthfully inform you that we had no awareness that the permit had expired. This is owing to three administration issues caused by the parking management company as follows:

1. The permit supplied by the parking management company that was displayed in the vehicle has no expiry date written on it (see photocopy evidence of permit supplied).
2. ‘Mr S’ received no correspondence from the parking management company informing him of the expiry of the existing permit.
3. ‘Mr S’ has not been supplied with a new permit.

As ‘Mr S’ pays for parking facilities through his service charge, we feel it’s reasonable to expect the parking management company to make adequate arrangements to inform him of the decision to invalidate his existing permit (given there was no expiry date on the permit) and provide him with a new one. This is something the parking management company failed to do. As a result neither of us was aware that the parking management company had invalidated the displayed permit and required us to display a new one.

It is relevant to inform you that the vehicle is rarely used or viewed by either of us as we generally cycle and / or use London public transport. Because of this, there became a build-up of tickets on the vehicle without us noticing. However, we note that not all of the tickets have been recovered from the vehicle as some appear to have been removed without our knowledge (we are not in possession of these tickets). A comprehensive list of ticket numbers has subsequently been established by phoning the number on debt recovery letters received at the registered owners address, ‘Mr C’, at <registered vehicle address>. However, these letters were received late owing to the property being under renovation and the charge notices arriving delayed (and in bulk) at ‘Mr C’s forwarding address at <Mr C’s forwarding address>.

Given the circumstances detailed above, I would be grateful if you could retract the charges relating to displaying an expired permit. In relation to the first charge (PM1), the permit had fallen down the dash and wasn’t displayed (as shown in the photographic evidence). This was our fault and we are happy to pay this charge however, owing to the same issues described above, we request that that the initial charge of £60 is applied as part of this appeal?

Can I also ask that you supply ‘Mr S’ with a valid permit as he is still not in receipt of one and unable to use the space which has been paid for. Also, please note that the car has now been sold (as we have nowhere to park) and ‘Mr C’ is no longer the registered owner of the vehicle.

I look forward to hearing from you

Yours Sincerely

‘Mr S’ & ‘Mr C’


Dear Mr C

Thank you for your correspondence regarding above Parking Charge Notice (PCN).

We are unable to process your appeal as your case is with one of our external debt collection agencies. You will now need to contract them regarding your case, all contact details for them can be found on previous correspondence they have sent you.

Debt Recovery Plus Ltd - <Telephone number>
Trace Debt Recovery Uk Ltd - <Telephone number>

The Independent Appeals Service (www.IAS.org) provides an Alternative Dispute Resolution scheme for disputes of this type. Debt Recovery Companies will not engage with the IAS Non-Standard Appeals Service at this stage

Yours Sincerely
PCM Appeals Team
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post Thu, 11 May 2017 - 15:32
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SchoolRunMum
post Sun, 14 May 2017 - 23:22
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I agree, make the complaints in your name, as you are the person being pursued. The lease seems clearer than most that the car was authorised and had rights to park. If PCM sue you over this one, it would be worth a hefty counter-claim, IMHO.

That's why it's good to get the DVLA reply now, as to how many times and when, did PCM obtain your data. They must get it from the DVLA every time, not copy it from PCN to PCN.
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alfxlon
post Mon, 15 May 2017 - 12:22
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Thanks both

I can indeed prove that it was parked in the allocated bay specified in the lease plan (It's recorded in the charge notice evidence). I've now downloaded my own copies which I've filed.

Thanks for the advice on not complicating the wording...think I can manage as you've suggested


...really appreciate everyone's help...will keep you posed. DVLA next!

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Chitlord
post Mon, 15 May 2017 - 12:29
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QUOTE (grgori @ Mon, 15 May 2017 - 13:22) *
Thanks both

I can indeed prove that it was parked in the allocated bay specified in the lease plan (It's recorded in the charge notice evidence). I've now downloaded my own copies which I've filed.

Thanks for the advice on not complicating the wording...think I can manage as you've suggested


...really appreciate everyone's help...will keep you posed. DVLA next!



you need to serve the other side with everything you are going to use in court. Use email if poss.
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alfxlon
post Thu, 18 May 2017 - 15:10
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Hi all

I’ve finished my letter (see attached). Be grateful for any feedback.. I’m just waiting on the DVLA response, so I can add evidence if any arises from that enquiry. I haven’t heard back yet though. Does anyone know if this is the correct email address as I had no confirmation of receipt?:

foi@dvla.gsi.gov.uk

Also, I think I’m running out of time, should I submit the letter without knowing if they applied multiple times for my data?

Also, should I provide a copy of the full lease at this stage to the parking company? I was just going to provide a scan of the plan with his space clearly delineated.

Finally any advice on moving the correspondence to email? I’m guessing I will need to print sign scan and send as a full attachment. How do I get proof of delivery?

Thanks again

Attached File(s)
Attached File  AnSecondLettertoPCM.pdf ( 344.21K ) Number of downloads: 57
 
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ostell
post Thu, 18 May 2017 - 15:27
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There is no need to send a full copy of the lease to them, it's none of their business, but send the portion that shows the parking and explains the plan.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 19 May 2017 - 09:23
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Indeed, simply send the relevant excerpt and the associated plan. reference this in your letter with e.g. ref 1 / excerpt of lease, ref 2 / cpoy of lease plan showing allocated psace. Makes it easy to reference later on if you actually sue them.
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alfxlon
post Fri, 19 May 2017 - 13:00
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Great..thanks everyone. Should I hang on for DVLA evidence or just send? Also is the DVLA email correct - i'm still not quite sure (as per my last message)

thanks
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Lynnzer
post Fri, 19 May 2017 - 13:33
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QUOTE (grgori @ Sun, 14 May 2017 - 18:23) *
Ok..so Lynnzer's templates are excellent. I'm going to start drafting that now plus my email to DVLA.

I just have one quick question - is it best if the letter is from me or my friend? - i don't think it can be both??

My friend is the owner (long hold lease owner) of the parking space as granted by the lease and insured driver on the vehicle.
I'm the registered owner (at a different address) and the person they are pursuing.

Its his lease contract that's been breached, so the wording of Lynnzer's email will have to be either from him directly or me referring to him in third person. Rather than doing that, would it be best to just letter from him saying he granted me access (with a signed letter) and then make all correspondences from me?

thanks

Missed this one. I was in Barcelona.

My first template would seem to the one. It's a double whammy. The actual leaseholder makes a claim for trespass and tortious interferance with his/her property rights. That letter to be sent to both the Managing Agent and PPC as joint parties to the claim. Then you also against the PPC for the breach of the DPA as it's your details they are using without reasonable cause.

List each occasion separately with an associated claim amount, ie multiple breaches and trespass.
For that number of tickets I'd go for £350 each, amnd the amount of each claim they presented you with for the leaseholder trespass/tortious interference.

The Additional Matters part of the template should be amended for your own use.

This will go to court for sure as they would want to defend that total but you are on pretty solid ground.

Anyway, post up the 2 letters before you send them.

This post has been edited by Lynnzer: Fri, 19 May 2017 - 13:45


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whjohnson
post Fri, 19 May 2017 - 13:39
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Does the op not need to find out how many times his data was accessed and processed before he can lodge individual claims?
If so. then surely he needs to await a response from the DVLA before proceeding further?

If they have accessed only once for all of the tickets, they're in trouble with the DVLA,
If they have accessed for each ticket, they are in trouble with the op's claims for breach of the DPA..

Morton's Fork springs to mind, but the op needs to know this information first?

This post has been edited by whjohnson: Fri, 19 May 2017 - 13:41
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Lynnzer
post Fri, 19 May 2017 - 13:47
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Yeah, that would be good but it has to be done asap.


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alfxlon
post Fri, 19 May 2017 - 13:51
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Thanks Lynnzer...I posted my draft letter. (See message from 16:10 yesterday). Does it read OK? Also, should I wait for further DVLA evidence - i.e. number of times my data was applied for?

I'll change the amount claimed as you advise.

much appreciated..

thanks
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alfxlon
post Fri, 19 May 2017 - 15:31
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Also, just found this in the lease! Could this create issues in terms of my argument?

To Observe Regulations
That the Leaseholder and the persons deriving title under the Leaseholder will at all times comply with such reasonable regulations as the Landlord may make from time to time relating to the putting out of refuse for removal and such other matters as the Landlord considers necessary or desirable for the purpose of securing the safety orderliness or cleanliness of the Building and/or the Estate or the Common Parts or the comfort or convenience of the tenants of the Building and/or the Estate or the efficient or economical performance by the Landlord of its obligations under this Lease

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Lynnzer
post Fri, 19 May 2017 - 15:53
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That would only apply if you drove a dustbin smile.gif


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whjohnson
post Fri, 19 May 2017 - 15:59
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So in other words, no dumping, no littering, no leaving rubbish in common areas such as pathways, stairwells, driveways etc. No dumping scrap cars/vans anywhere on the land.
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alfxlon
post Sat, 20 May 2017 - 18:37
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Ah yes. I get it. Legal wording does my head in !

So I got the Dvla response. They applied for my details each time for each ticket so I'm just going to crack on with my original claim approach.

Will post up soon.

Thanks for help everyone. Really appreciate it.
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Lynnzer
post Sat, 20 May 2017 - 20:10
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12 x Kerching



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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 22 May 2017 - 06:56
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"the comfort or convenience of the tenants of the Building "
they may try to claim parking regs come under here
However nowehre do they allow thecreation of an obligation to a third party, nowhere does it allow them to derogate from their grant without explicit acceptance on both sides, noweere does it prvide for any obligation to contract with someone else. Expect them to try it on, however
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alfxlon
post Tue, 23 May 2017 - 08:43
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Hi All

thanks again for responses. Just on the final stages of my final draft letter. Just a quick couple of questions. As it is me making the claim but my friends lease that has been breached, I'm guessing it is not acceptable for me to claim money for trespass -it's not my leased land after all. I'd have to get me friend to make a joint claim with me - is that correct?

Also, I'm charging £750 per breach of use of my data as per data protection act. As there were 12 separate instances, do you think it's acceptable to claim 12 X £750, i.e. £9000?

thanks again for your support
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Gan
post Tue, 23 May 2017 - 08:56
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The courts won't go for that
You're also inviting them to use some serious and expensive legal muscle

The sweet spot where companies are prepared to settle rather than fight is about £250
For 12 instances I would go for £100 each

You can then argue ParkingEye v Beavis that there is a legitimate public interest to prevent misuse of information
The amount is no larger than necessary to act as a disincentive but large enough to be worth the effort of recovery
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kommando
post Tue, 23 May 2017 - 09:03
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In the same way the PPC has no rights to pursue trespass neither do you but the landowner can.

On the £750 x 12 that depends on what you are claiming for, if its distress (and who wouldn't be distressed after being pursued for 12 invoices and £2000) then its whether you would be 12 times distressed for 12 tickets over 1, it will be more but not 12 times so leave it for the Judge to decide, if you do not ask you do not get. Hopefully they are dealing with their own ticket wink.gif, certain elements will be straight multipliers eg the bit for breach of DPA.
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