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£2000 of tickets - Permit expired without us knowing or being informed, Need help - have appealed but told to contact debt recovery or IAS
alfxlon
post Thu, 11 May 2017 - 15:32
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Hi Everyone,

I’d be really grateful if someone could help with this as it’s getting really stressful – 12 tickets each at £160 and mounting. I’ve trawled through the other threads to find exact answers but I’m still unclear what to.

Basically I park my car in my friend’s apartment car park (with permit displayed). My friend who owns the space is also named insured driver. Neither of us really use the car or see it that often as we both cycle or use public transport.

Anyway, I needed to use the car recently but found a load of tickets on it (from private parking management company). I had no idea what they were for so I phoned up the debt collection company who eventually told me it was because my permit had expired. We had no idea this had happened because our existing permit had no expiry date written on it. Also they never wrote to him telling him they’d expired the permit or issued him with a new one. Because my place (where vehicle is registered) is a building site at the moment I’m living at a forwarding address, all the notices came through late to me so was delayed in appealing.

Anyway for each of these tickets I get a separate correspondence. They’re now coming from a debt collection agency (TRACE) and now letters from solicitors Gladstone’s requesting payment (with increasing costs).

I wrote to the PCN company with the letter of appeal (see below) and they wrote back saying they are unable to process my appeal as my case is with one of their external debt collection agencies and I’d need to contact them. They say I can appeal through IAS (see response letter below).

My question is, what’s the best thing to do now? Should I appeal through IAS? Other options? £2000 plus seems excessive especially as they didn’t inform us or provide new permit!!

Would really appreciate any help

many thanks


<I anonymised the letter – I’m Mr C and registered Keeper. Mr S is owner of the car space and permit and insured driver on vehicle>

Dear Sir / Madam

Vehicle Registration Number: XYZ
Ticket References:
PCM Ref Date of Issue PCN ticket Description Reason later established by calling TRACE Debt recovery
PM1 07/10/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit No permit displayed
PM2 05/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM3 07/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM4 12/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM5 15/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM6 19/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM7 22/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM8 03/12/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM9 13/12/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM10 11/01/2017 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM11 17/01/2017 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM12 29/01/2017 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit

We are writing to appeal the above parking charges. Owing to the circumstances explained below we believe that the tickets have been unfairly issued because of administration issues of the parking management company (Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd) and other circumstances beyond our control.

We can confirm that ‘Mr S’ is resident owner in the building (address of building where tickets were issued managed by PCM) and owner of the parking space occupied by the vehicle (Registration XYZ). He is fully paid-up in terms of his building service charges which include financial contribution to the management of the car park and entitlement to a valid parking permit. ‘Mr C’ is the registered owner of the vehicle and we are close friends. ‘Mr S’ is a named insured driver on the vehicle (see attached evidence).

We note that all of the parking tickets except the first relate to “displaying an expired permit”. This information was only recently established (18/4/17) by contacting the debt recovery agency, TRACE as this information isn’t stated on any of the parking control notices or correspondences relating to the charges.

We can truthfully inform you that we had no awareness that the permit had expired. This is owing to three administration issues caused by the parking management company as follows:

1. The permit supplied by the parking management company that was displayed in the vehicle has no expiry date written on it (see photocopy evidence of permit supplied).
2. ‘Mr S’ received no correspondence from the parking management company informing him of the expiry of the existing permit.
3. ‘Mr S’ has not been supplied with a new permit.

As ‘Mr S’ pays for parking facilities through his service charge, we feel it’s reasonable to expect the parking management company to make adequate arrangements to inform him of the decision to invalidate his existing permit (given there was no expiry date on the permit) and provide him with a new one. This is something the parking management company failed to do. As a result neither of us was aware that the parking management company had invalidated the displayed permit and required us to display a new one.

It is relevant to inform you that the vehicle is rarely used or viewed by either of us as we generally cycle and / or use London public transport. Because of this, there became a build-up of tickets on the vehicle without us noticing. However, we note that not all of the tickets have been recovered from the vehicle as some appear to have been removed without our knowledge (we are not in possession of these tickets). A comprehensive list of ticket numbers has subsequently been established by phoning the number on debt recovery letters received at the registered owners address, ‘Mr C’, at <registered vehicle address>. However, these letters were received late owing to the property being under renovation and the charge notices arriving delayed (and in bulk) at ‘Mr C’s forwarding address at <Mr C’s forwarding address>.

Given the circumstances detailed above, I would be grateful if you could retract the charges relating to displaying an expired permit. In relation to the first charge (PM1), the permit had fallen down the dash and wasn’t displayed (as shown in the photographic evidence). This was our fault and we are happy to pay this charge however, owing to the same issues described above, we request that that the initial charge of £60 is applied as part of this appeal?

Can I also ask that you supply ‘Mr S’ with a valid permit as he is still not in receipt of one and unable to use the space which has been paid for. Also, please note that the car has now been sold (as we have nowhere to park) and ‘Mr C’ is no longer the registered owner of the vehicle.

I look forward to hearing from you

Yours Sincerely

‘Mr S’ & ‘Mr C’


Dear Mr C

Thank you for your correspondence regarding above Parking Charge Notice (PCN).

We are unable to process your appeal as your case is with one of our external debt collection agencies. You will now need to contract them regarding your case, all contact details for them can be found on previous correspondence they have sent you.

Debt Recovery Plus Ltd - <Telephone number>
Trace Debt Recovery Uk Ltd - <Telephone number>

The Independent Appeals Service (www.IAS.org) provides an Alternative Dispute Resolution scheme for disputes of this type. Debt Recovery Companies will not engage with the IAS Non-Standard Appeals Service at this stage

Yours Sincerely
PCM Appeals Team
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post Thu, 11 May 2017 - 15:32
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Gan
post Thu, 11 May 2017 - 15:52
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Never, ever appeal to the IAS

It is Gladstones Solicitors

What does your friend's lease say about parking ?
Does the permit have a date on it ?
Do you believe that PCM has been issuing new parking notices when the car hadn't moved ?
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Jlc
post Thu, 11 May 2017 - 16:09
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QUOTE (Gan @ Thu, 11 May 2017 - 16:52) *
Never, ever appeal to the IAS

...and in this case it's worse than that - it will be the 'paid for' service that is apparently 'binding'.

QUOTE (Gan @ Thu, 11 May 2017 - 16:52) *
Do you believe that PCM has been issuing new parking notices when the car hadn't moved ?

Pictures of the signs could be helpful - particularly any '24 hour' clause.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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alfxlon
post Thu, 11 May 2017 - 16:15
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Jlc - Yes, I can see there's mistakes in my appeal letter but would appreciate if i could help resolving issue.

Gan in answer to your questions:

1. I need to check the lease - is there anything specifically i'm looking for?
2. The permit has an issue date on it but no expiry
3. Yes the PCM was putting tickets on the car when it hadn't been moved. A lot of the tickets were being removed also, I only have about 1/4 of them. The rest I had to get from the debt recovery agent
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paulajayne
post Thu, 11 May 2017 - 16:42
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QUOTE (grgori @ Thu, 11 May 2017 - 17:15) *
Jlc - Yes, I can see there's mistakes in my appeal letter but would appreciate if i could help resolving issue.

Gan in answer to your questions:

1. I need to check the lease - is there anything specifically i'm looking for?.


YES MENTION OR NOT OF PARKING SPACES

This post has been edited by paulajayne: Thu, 11 May 2017 - 16:43
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whjohnson
post Thu, 11 May 2017 - 18:49
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Read this and search for other cases

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/20...al-charges.html
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cop a load of th...
post Thu, 11 May 2017 - 19:17
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QUOTE (grgori @ Thu, 11 May 2017 - 17:15) *
Jlc - Yes, I can see there's mistakes in my appeal letter but would appreciate if i could help resolving issue.

Gan in answer to your questions:

1. I need to check the lease - is there anything specifically i'm looking for?
2. The permit has an issue date on it but no expiry
3. Yes the PCM was putting tickets on the car when it hadn't been moved. A lot of the tickets were being removed also, I only have about 1/4 of them. The rest I had to get from the debt recovery agent


I believe that DRP cannot take court action, but only refer it back to the PPC , Maybe the more informed on here will agree / disagree.

they are playing fly stating you will have to talk with DRP ( I think )
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ostell
post Fri, 12 May 2017 - 07:29
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This Parking Prankster article should provide some relevant information

Get a photo of the signs to post here. Do the signs say charges apply for every 24 hour period, or similar wording? The charge of £160 is a bit high. Does the sign say there will be extra charges if there is no payment?

Check with the DVLA on how many times your details have been requested between the first and last date. Could be interesting exercise and if they just applied once then you could have a substantial claim for misuse of your data and get the charges easily cancelled.

Normal recomendation is to ignore DRP as they are mere debt collectors.

This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 12 May 2017 - 07:29
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alfxlon
post Fri, 12 May 2017 - 12:21
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Thanks everyone for your help

I'm asking my friend to dig out his lease and will post as soon as I get it.

I've attached a picture of the parking sign. There is a 24 hour clause. Also a clause around additional charges for non- payment. There's also a clause that states "Retrospective evidence of authority to park will not be accepted"

Would be grateful for your thoughts. Is the lease still worth a look, even with the retrospective clause?

I feel that they made our pass expire without informing us and charging for the privilege very dodgy - does this have any validity??


thanks again
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Jlc
post Fri, 12 May 2017 - 12:30
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The retrospective bit doesn't matter if the contract couldn't be formed in the first place, i.e. they didn't have sufficient ability to offer a contract (due to primacy of lease perhaps).


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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thevaliant
post Fri, 12 May 2017 - 13:42
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You need the lease. Everything else is (at present) irrelevant.

If your friends lease gives him right to park a vehicle in that spot (without needing to display a permit), then no trumped up sign can override that right.

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The Rookie
post Sat, 13 May 2017 - 05:24
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Forbidding sign, no contract so any action could only be taken by the land occupier not the PPC and the occupier appears to be your mate.......

Yup only your mate can take you to court and I'm guessing he's not going to!

I'd be sorely tempted to write up a legal agreement with your mate and pay him off for the trespass, say 1p, and then send a copy to the PPC saying the occupier has been fully paid for the trespass.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Sat, 13 May 2017 - 05:25


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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SmellyCat
post Sat, 13 May 2017 - 10:31
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Don't think it can be construed as forbidding, since it sets out T & C for any driver using the facility, rather that stating explicitly that only certain drivers (e.g. permit holders) are allowed to park.
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The Rookie
post Sat, 13 May 2017 - 10:40
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Really, if you've BREACHED the terms then you have not contractually entered a contract, its mutually exclusive.

A contractually agreed sum would be worded as 'premium parking' this is clearly forbidding IMO despite the way they have worded it.

If it said 'should you park in a manner other than that described you agree to pay' then I'd agree with you, but it clearly states you haven't entered a contract.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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SmellyCat
post Sat, 13 May 2017 - 11:43
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Whatever way we may each interpret it, I guess at the last stage it's down to the judge if it even gets that far smile.gif
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alfxlon
post Sat, 13 May 2017 - 13:34
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Hi Everyone

Thanks again for the support.. I've got a copy of the lease (see attachment (i've removed first couple of pages with names / amount / addresses etc))

My mate says the parking permit / management firm is fairly new (last couple of years) and wasn't in place when he moved in / signed the lease.

Anyway..i't quite long so here's what I understand:

Second schedule 1 c (see part 2) details his rights to use the car parking space - outlined in blue on the plan (see end of document)

5(1) (see part 1) Landlords Covenants: "That the leaseholder paying the rents herbeby reserved and performing and observing the covenants herein contained may peaceably enjoy the premises during the term without any lawful interruption from the landlord or any person rightfully claiming under or in trust for it"

3(24) (see part 1) is about restrictions on parking. - no mention of requiring a permit etc

Be grateful for your advice

thanks again



Part 2

(nb - not enough disk space for part 3 - I'll try but basically just the plan outlining his flat in red and his private terrace in blue and car parking space in blue)

This post has been edited by grgori: Sat, 13 May 2017 - 13:38
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SchoolRunMum
post Sat, 13 May 2017 - 20:29
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QUOTE (grgori @ Thu, 11 May 2017 - 16:32) *
The Independent Appeals Service (www.IAS.org) provides an Alternative Dispute Resolution scheme for disputes of this type. Debt Recovery Companies will not engage with the IAS Non-Standard Appeals Service at this stage.


Absolutely categorically NEVER go near the IAS 'non-standard' so-called ADR. Nononono, never. The IAS is run by the same people as Gladstones, the Trade Body of...PCM.

This is PCM (below) IMHO they could not be 'sincere' (despite the 'yours sincerely' on the letter) if you threw a dictionary in their face and that word was imprinted on their foreheads for them to see in the mirror every day for a week till they had a wash:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02sh3sr

That is PCM's calibre, ex clampers and one of the lowest knuckle-dragging firms you could hope to have let loose near your cars (according to the posters here).

QUOTE
My mate says the parking permit / management firm is fairly new (last couple of years) and wasn't in place when he moved in / signed the lease.


So he has primacy of contract then, he had parking rights granted before this, and the managing agent cannot allow a parking contractor to cause a derogation from that grant.

QUOTE
Second schedule 1 c (see part 2) details his rights to use the car parking space - outlined in blue on the plan (see end of document)

5(1) (see part 1) Landlords Covenants: "That the leaseholder paying the rents herbeby reserved and performing and observing the covenants herein contained may peaceably enjoy the premises during the term without any lawful interruption from the landlord or any person rightfully claiming under or in trust for it"

3(24) (see part 1) is about restrictions on parking. - no mention of requiring a permit etc


Have a look at the links in Lynnzer's signature at the bottom of his posts, about how to fight back. And read all of this thread to fire you up on how to address this:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5015782

That thread by 'Daniel san' is still running since 2014 and he is making it crystal clear to the Managing Agent that they can't do this. Your case looks even stronger than his about granted parking rights under that lease, from what you have shown us. And add the fact the permit had no expiry date on it, how on earth would you know?

You need to fight back with letters to the MA and to PCM, in Daniel san's style, and should consider a court claim against both for damages for distress caused by their derogation from grant and for PCM obtaining your details from the DVLA without reasonable cause. When I say 'you' I mean whoever is getting the letters.

That person (you or flatmate?) should also email the DVLA and ask how many times and when, did PCM obtain your data in that time period and the months after? I am wondering if they didn't get DVLA data each and every time, which they have to. So ask the DVLA by email as well as starting your fightback in earnest.

This post has been edited by SchoolRunMum: Sat, 13 May 2017 - 20:34
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alfxlon
post Sun, 14 May 2017 - 14:35
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Thanks SchoolRunMum.

I'm going to read through it all and draft a response. Will post here before sending.
Really appreciate all your help and advice !
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alfxlon
post Sun, 14 May 2017 - 17:23
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Ok..so Lynnzer's templates are excellent. I'm going to start drafting that now plus my email to DVLA.

I just have one quick question - is it best if the letter is from me or my friend? - i don't think it can be both??

My friend is the owner (long hold lease owner) of the parking space as granted by the lease and insured driver on the vehicle.
I'm the registered owner (at a different address) and the person they are pursuing.

Its his lease contract that's been breached, so the wording of Lynnzer's email will have to be either from him directly or me referring to him in third person. Rather than doing that, would it be best to just letter from him saying he granted me access (with a signed letter) and then make all correspondences from me?

thanks
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hexaflexagon
post Sun, 14 May 2017 - 18:51
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Are you able to confirm that the car was indeed parked within the area edged as blue.

Assuming that's the case then it would seem you have no case to answer.

Paragraph 1 of the Second schedule starts off by saying the Leaseholder and all persons authorised by the leaseholder has the right to.....c) use the parking space edged in blue...

The operative word being 'right' with no mention anywhere that I can see that it's subject to any permit conditions. I'm reading Para 3(24), which is the only place a permit is mentioned, as referring to roadside residents parking bays - the sort seen in many areas and where the permit is issued by the Council - nothing to do with the Landwner.

Personally and at this stage I wouldn't complicate your argument by referring to the fact that it's your mate who is the leaseholder. That just gives a wedge to muddy the waters. You can honestly say that the Lease of the premises including the car park space gives you the the right to park there without mentioning how you acquire that right.
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