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12 PCNs for parking on DYL
seaofcymbals
post Mon, 1 Nov 2021 - 22:40
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Hi All,

I accidentally parked my car on DYL late at night on the 17th August after driving my car back from holiday. I was very tired and had not being paying much attention as I parked my car. This street is unmarked and has no restrictions so I use it to park my car for extended periods of time.

However, at the end of the street the DYL for the next street begin. This time my car overlapped these DYL.

Over the next few weeks, unbeknownst to me PCNs had been issued many times and it wasn't till several weeks later that I had discovered this was the case. I had recently purchased the car, and had yet to transfer ownership to myself, so these letters were being issued to the previous owner, who informed me of the case.

Once informed I immediately wrote to the DVLA and the PCNs were transferred to me. Although it was too late and now I am sitting with 12 PCNs.

I am shocked by the number of PCNs issued and I was surprised they hadn't just towed the car away.

The PCNs total an eye watering £840. I have paid off the first two NTOs that arrived through the post (ref. 6 & 10).

The PCNs are tabled here, please refer to the picture reference when viewing photos:

Pic Ref. | Date of Contravention | Time | Offence | Status | Original PCN
1 | 18/08/2021 | 12:XX | 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours | NTO – Unpaid | Missing from vehicle
2 | 23/08/2021 | 13:XX | 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours | NTO – Unpaid | Missing from vehicle
3 | 25/08/2021 | 11:XX | 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours | NTO – Unpaid | Missing from vehicle
4 | 28/08/2021 | 14:XX | 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours | NTO – Unpaid | Missing from vehicle
5 | 02/09/2021 | 13:XX | 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours | PCN Issued | Attached
6 | 09/09/2021 | 10:XX | 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours | NTO – Paid | Missing from vehicle
7 | 11/09/2021 | 12:XX | 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours | PCN Issued | Attached
8 | 17/09/2021 | 12:XX | 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours | PCN Issued | Attached
9 | 18/09/2021 | 17:XX | 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours | PCN Issued | Attached
10 | 21/09/2021 | 16:XX | 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours | NTO – Paid | Missing from vehicle
11 | 23/09/2021 | 16:XX | 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours | NTO – Unpaid | Missing from vehicle
12 | 24/09/2021 | 13:XX | 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours | PCN Issued | Attached

When I found my car, many of the above PCNs were missing (those that have NTOs)

Here are links to the original PCNs:

ORIGINAL PCNS
Ref. Image Link
5 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/4328/Pydfjd.jpg
7 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/3313/ARmhjf.jpg
8 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/1010/TcGIht.jpg
9 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/2470/24gN5C.jpg
12 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/1957/dQvnKg.jpg

ORIGINAL NTOS
Ref. Image Link
1 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/7803/07jdA0.jpg
2 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1376/Zc6IeM.jpg
3 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/7558/78pV8k.jpg
4 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/6063/Cyrwam.jpg
6 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/688/hwtKj6.jpg
10 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/4277/GlAoxx.jpg

I have attached photos of the online viewable PCNs:

ONLINE PCNS
Ref. Image Link
1 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7205/ot1qZ3.jpg
2 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/2210/8AQP6d.jpg
3 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/2654/TcDL2u.jpg
4 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/9751/kCDOzl.jpg
5 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5473/LE5JvZ.jpg
6 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/3782/PMqopT.jpg
7 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/4448/TDuSEV.jpg
8 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/4848/vOzRpR.jpg
9 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1074/sgq0WS.jpg
10 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/9750/qmSFxL.jpg
11 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/9520/vQxbuS.jpg
12 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1576/rdgdt1.jpg

I have attached pictures of the rear and front tyres, showing that the vehicle had not moved for the entire duration:

REAR TYRE
Ref. Image Link
1 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/3574/FJaO45.jpg
2 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/5154/2iZAm4.jpg
3 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/2653/ut8FKP.jpg
4 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/3706/uqWEu9.jpg
5 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6356/EDXsUc.jpg
6 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/3749/SfTlnJ.jpg
7 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/6100/odueFy.jpg
8 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/2416/DbWLMs.jpg
9 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/1598/8Qv097.jpg
10 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/1651/XHJVPH.jpg
11 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/826/nOEDec.jpg
12 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7425/RCn7ta.jpg

FRONT TYRE (FRONT VIEW)
Ref. Image Link
1 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/9407/qoGPwm.jpg
2 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/9266/Z41pCr.jpg
3 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/4420/IBAMpH.jpg
4 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/855/bsLPOR.jpg
5 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8201/vA9vnI.jpg
6 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1954/kpZgB2.jpg
7 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/9093/uq8aXs.jpg
8 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/9176/QIDO1L.jpg
9 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/7503/AAvvA3.jpg
10 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/1055/py2jpi.jpg
11 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/852/3kkgki.jpg
12 https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/1060/rV2lyA.jpg

STREET VIEW
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/6638/Qi7qcY.jpg


I wish to appeal as I've read that multiple PCNs cannot be enforced for a continuous contravention.


Many thanks in advance for any help and advice. It is a very stressful situation to find myself in as I face redundancy from my job.

This post has been edited by seaofcymbals: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 - 22:50
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post Mon, 1 Nov 2021 - 22:40
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stamfordman
post Mon, 1 Nov 2021 - 23:30
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Double yellows mean a continuous contravention so technically you are only liable for one and indeed they should tow rather than keep slapping on PCNs that cannot be enforced. Does Sheffield have a car pound?

I'm not going to try and read through all your stuff - it really isn't necessary to post recurring pics and screenshots - but answer this:

Are all the unpaid NTOs still within challenge deadline? What is date of oldest unpaid one?





This post has been edited by stamfordman: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 - 23:38
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Mr Mustard
post Tue, 2 Nov 2021 - 06:52
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I agree there is only one contravention and this isn’t a bad one. I would suggest you ask your local councillor to have a word on your behalf as you have already paid twice what you owe. You also need to make representations against the Notices to Owner on time. All you have to say is that there was only one contravention and you have paid for two.


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hcandersen
post Tue, 2 Nov 2021 - 08:21
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There's something odd about your account.

Once informed I immediately wrote to the DVLA and the PCNs were transferred to me. Although it was too late and now I am sitting with 12 PCNs

DVLA cannot transfer PCNs.

You cannot have 12 PCNs, but as the owner you could have 12 NTOs.

But in fact do you have ANY NTOs in your name?

Pl confirm that the NTOs are addressed to you and not that the addressee is the previous owner who contacted you and sent theirs to you.
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seaofcymbals
post Tue, 2 Nov 2021 - 10:01
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 2 Nov 2021 - 08:21) *
There's something odd about your account.

Once informed I immediately wrote to the DVLA and the PCNs were transferred to me. Although it was too late and now I am sitting with 12 PCNs

DVLA cannot transfer PCNs.

You cannot have 12 PCNs, but as the owner you could have 12 NTOs.

But in fact do you have ANY NTOs in your name?

Pl confirm that the NTOs are addressed to you and not that the addressee is the previous owner who contacted you and sent theirs to you.


Sorry, I should have been more specific. I informed the DVLA of a change of ownership, and subsequently the NTOs (not PCNs) were delivered to me at my address and in my name. The original PCNs were attached to the vehicle. I have yet to receive NTOs for some of these - shall I wait till these come through before making appeals?

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 1 Nov 2021 - 23:30) *
Double yellows mean a continuous contravention so technically you are only liable for one and indeed they should tow rather than keep slapping on PCNs that cannot be enforced. Does Sheffield have a car pound?

I'm not going to try and read through all your stuff - it really isn't necessary to post recurring pics and screenshots - but answer this:

Are all the unpaid NTOs still within challenge deadline? What is date of oldest unpaid one?





Thank you for your comment, just thought I ought to be thorough as its my first time posting on here. Yes all of the NTOs are still within the deadline, the oldest dated 11/10/2021.

QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Tue, 2 Nov 2021 - 06:52) *
I agree there is only one contravention and this isn’t a bad one. I would suggest you ask your local councillor to have a word on your behalf as you have already paid twice what you owe. You also need to make representations against the Notices to Owner on time. All you have to say is that there was only one contravention and you have paid for two.



Thanks for the tip. Shall I add any further information (e.g. quoting previous appeals) or information to bolster my case, or does 'less is more' work better?
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Mr Mustard
post Tue, 2 Nov 2021 - 10:19
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Less is more. After the first PCN there simply shouldn't have been any more issued so that is all you need to say.


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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stamfordman
post Tue, 2 Nov 2021 - 10:28
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Sheffield has a pound so there is no excuse for multiple PCNs if they thought it was a serious ongoing higher level penalty, as double yellow waiting usually is.

Actually it was just as well they didn't tow as presumably you would not have known and there's no getting out of the fees although they are low compared with London.

https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/home/parking/r...ve-your-vehicle

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 - 10:30
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cp8759
post Tue, 2 Nov 2021 - 22:43
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QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Tue, 2 Nov 2021 - 10:19) *
Less is more. After the first PCN there simply shouldn't have been any more issued so that is all you need to say.

+1


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seaofcymbals
post Sun, 7 Nov 2021 - 19:39
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Thanks so much for the advice. The Sheffield City Council website states this:

Reason for appeal: More than one PCN was issued for the same contravention

We may accept this if…

- More than one PCN has been issued for a parking contravention within 24 hours. If evidence suggests the driver has not returned / moved the vehicle the driver would still be liable for one of the PCNs

Examples of when we may reject it:

- A vehicle has been left parked on a restriction over consecutive days and there is more than a 24 hour period between PCNs Note: in some situations vehicles may be removed; the issue of PCN should not be regarded as grounds to leave a vehicle parked

So am I still able to appeal and win it, given the majority of PCNs given were spaced out over more than 24 hours?
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Incandescent
post Sun, 7 Nov 2021 - 20:29
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QUOTE
So am I still able to appeal and win it, given the majority of PCNs given were spaced out over more than 24 hours?

Yes you are ! Sheffield's statements are total tosh. It has been decided in many appeals in the past that only a single PCN can be issued for a single contravention, DYLs apply 24x7 so if your car was there 12 days it is STILL a single contravention. There is nothing in law to justify what they have done. If it was an obstruction they have the power to tow the vehicle, but they didn't. This is probably because the CEOs would then not have been able to issue any more PCNs justify their own miserable existence, so didn't bother about reporting the car and getting it towed.

With situations like this, you have to stand your ground and have the courage of your convictions. They will grind you down if you let them !
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seaofcymbals
post Sun, 7 Nov 2021 - 21:22
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sun, 7 Nov 2021 - 20:29) *
QUOTE
So am I still able to appeal and win it, given the majority of PCNs given were spaced out over more than 24 hours?

Yes you are ! Sheffield's statements are total tosh. It has been decided in many appeals in the past that only a single PCN can be issued for a single contravention, DYLs apply 24x7 so if your car was there 12 days it is STILL a single contravention. There is nothing in law to justify what they have done. If it was an obstruction they have the power to tow the vehicle, but they didn't. This is probably because the CEOs would then not have been able to issue any more PCNs justify their own miserable existence, so didn't bother about reporting the car and getting it towed.

With situations like this, you have to stand your ground and have the courage of your convictions. They will grind you down if you let them !


Thanks mate, I've sent representations for 10 of the unpaid PCNs and requested for a refund for the second paid PCN. I am shocked that the council is allowed to misinform appellants on the rules! I guess that's why forums like these exist.
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Mr Mustard
post Sun, 7 Nov 2021 - 21:57
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A blog I wroteabout this situation http://lbbspending.blogspot.com/2021/06/co...riness.html?m=1


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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cp8759
post Mon, 8 Nov 2021 - 17:10
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QUOTE (seaofcymbals @ Sun, 7 Nov 2021 - 21:22) *
Thanks mate, I've sent representations for 10 of the unpaid PCNs and requested for a refund for the second paid PCN. I am shocked that the council is allowed to misinform appellants on the rules! I guess that's why forums like these exist.

The problem is the council doesn't know / understand the rules. They're not lying to you, they actually believe that what they say is correct.


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seaofcymbals
post Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 13:23
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Hi, I've now received a response from the council for one of the PCNs:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/839/9zL0Pm.jpg

Seems like they are arguing that the PCNs are independent of each other and so this PCN is not contingent on the issuing of other PCNS. Although I don't see any legal justification of this argument. Any advice on where to go from here?

Cheers
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stamfordman
post Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 13:44
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They are wrong and are not even reoffering the discount so you now should wait for the notice to owner(s).

But I thought they had already sent NTOs? What PCN is this? You are blanking the PCN number and dates.



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seaofcymbals
post Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 14:06
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 13:44) *
They are wrong and are not even reoffering the discount so you now should wait for the notice to owner(s).

But I thought they had already sent NTOs? What PCN is this? You are blanking the PCN number and dates.



Sorry this is the 17/09/2021 (Ref: 8 in the above table), there has not been NTO for this as of yet.

So shall I wait for the NTO and then respond to that with the same appeal?
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stamfordman
post Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 14:12
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QUOTE (seaofcymbals @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 14:06) *
Sorry this is the 17/09/2021 (Ref: 8 in the above table), there has not been NTO for this as of yet.

So shall I wait for the NTO and then respond to that with the same appeal?


It's pointless paying it as they've not offered the discount.

Yes, wait for NTO.

Have you sent reps for any NTOs yet?
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seaofcymbals
post Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 16:29
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 14:12) *
QUOTE (seaofcymbals @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 14:06) *
Sorry this is the 17/09/2021 (Ref: 8 in the above table), there has not been NTO for this as of yet.

So shall I wait for the NTO and then respond to that with the same appeal?


It's pointless paying it as they've not offered the discount.

Yes, wait for NTO.

Have you sent reps for any NTOs yet?


Yes for all 7 NTOs listed in the initial post (Ref: 1,2,3,4,6,10,11) I've sent near identical representations, as well as to the PCNs that don't have NTOs.

None of them have the discount available anymore, so I'll wait for NTOs to come through for the rest and reply to those with the same appeal.

Should I expect the same response to the NTOs then?
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Forde_Dagenham
post Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 19:53
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QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Tue, 2 Nov 2021 - 06:52) *
I agree there is only one contravention and this isn’t a bad one. I would suggest you ask your local councillor to have a word on your behalf as you have already paid twice what you owe. You also need to make representations against the Notices to Owner on time. All you have to say is that there was only one contravention and you have paid for two.


Did you (Shall you) contact your local councilor - it is a tiny contravention?

If the law is only one PCN is valid you have been put to an enormous lot of trouble and stress unreasonably.
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cp8759
post Thu, 18 Nov 2021 - 11:22
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QUOTE (seaofcymbals @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 16:29) *
None of them have the discount available anymore, so I'll wait for NTOs to come through for the rest and reply to those with the same appeal.

Should I expect the same response to the NTOs then?

They might cancel some at the NTO stage, it's hard to say. Let us know if you get a Notice of Rejection for any of them.


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