Parking outside parking bay lines, Parking Fine |
Parking outside parking bay lines, Parking Fine |
Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 16:06
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 11 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,339 |
Recently on holiday I parked in a council car park in Paignton, Torbay. The space I parked in was right next to a wall at one end but nevertheless not wide enough to fit my car and so I parked over the lines. I received a PCN for doing so and then appealed to the council providing pics of the car and space. The council acknowledged that the car did not fit in that particular space but claimed I could have parked in the bigger space next to it. I am awaiting NTO before I can appeal further or pay the £25 fine they are asking for now or it goes to £50 after a couple of weeks. Unfortunately I did not take pics of the Car park signs as I figured all spaces unless otherwise indicated should be appropriate to park in.
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Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 16:06
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Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 16:23
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Post the council's pics. And PCN and rejection. use a site such as https://imgbb.com for pics and post the BBcode embed links.
if council admit it's a space then you ought to win this. |
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Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 15:57
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 11 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,339 |
Many thanks Stamfordman. I have uploaded my pics as suggested including the rejection letter by the council. The links are below. I’ve misplaced the PCN and will phone the council to get the PCN details on Monday as I cannot access their pics online. Once I get those I will upload them too.
Many thanks again https://ibb.co/kaqRUU https://ibb.co/n1fRUU https://ibb.co/jiEgw9 https://ibb.co/nyfMw9 |
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Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 17:18
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Odd one this - why didn't you park in the larger bay as they suggest? But a bay is a bay and it ought to be big enough.
I would argue that there is only really one bay there so it hardly matters where you were in it. Mind you that's a big car you have. This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 17:28 |
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Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 17:22
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Shows us the PCN, both sides in full please.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 15:25
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 11 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,339 |
Hi I have uploaded the council pics and you can see that there is a great big beam separating the spaces so not much difference in size - my vehicle is a family car but still less than 1.9 meters wide. The car was full of passengers and I believe parking on either side would have been tight. There would certainly not had been enough room for another car to park next to me without damaging the vehicles - if in theory a vehicle had managed to park next to me they would not had been able to open their doors. I have misplaced the PCN and have asked the council for a copy.
https://ibb.co/fRZvwL https://ibb.co/kqr8GL Thanks |
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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 16:09
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 617 Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Member No.: 6,174 |
My BMW GS Adventure bike would fill that space, never mind the 4 series, and no one can say the M4 is a big car, I think the only car that would fit in that space would be a.
https://goo.gl/images/X6JaC7 |
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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 16:27
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 972 Joined: 25 Jul 2010 Member No.: 39,245 |
My BMW GS Adventure bike would fill that space, never mind the 4 series, and no one can say the M4 is a big car, I think the only car that would fit in that space would be a. https://goo.gl/images/X6JaC7 Maybe it was reserved for Delboy then |
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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 20:21
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 11 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,339 |
My BMW GS Adventure bike would fill that space, never mind the 4 series, and no one can say the M4 is a big car, I think the only car that would fit in that space would be a. https://goo.gl/images/X6JaC7 Del boy’s reserved sign has badly faded probably because he couldn’t even park in that space |
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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 - 10:05
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 11 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,339 |
Hi I have received the NTO from Torbay Council the main part of which can be viewed on the link https://ibb.co/mysrk0
Any advice on how to respond will be greatly appreciated. Unfortunately I cannot get hold of the original parking ticket. |
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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 - 15:20
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Show us the rest of the NtO just in case there's any errors.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 16:22
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 11 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,339 |
Here is the complete NTO in four parts below
https://ibb.co/e6Rxf0 https://ibb.co/bOr8nf https://ibb.co/kir8nf https://ibb.co/c9DXDL |
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Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 17:56
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#13
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
The Order for this car park details reserved bays at Article 8 and Article 9:-
https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...-Order-2017.pdf Reserved bays for this car park are noted on page 20. There is a clear marking that these are reserved bays in the Council's photos. So the OP shouldn't have parked there anyway because his vehicle was not an authorised one. You get the contravention for breaching Art 8(4) or Art 9(4) not for failure to park wholly within a bay. Under the Order failure to park wholly within a bay ONLY applies to permit holders and authorised vehicles. Wrong contravention = invalid PCN. Should have been Code 81 "Parked in a restricted area in a car park" Mick |
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Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 20:42
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
The Order for this car park details reserved bays at Article 8 and Article 9:- https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...-Order-2017.pdf Reserved bays for this car park are noted on page 20. There is a clear marking that these are reserved bays in the Council's photos. So the OP shouldn't have parked there anyway because his vehicle was not an authorised one. You get the contravention for breaching Art 8(4) or Art 9(4) not for failure to park wholly within a bay. Under the Order failure to park wholly within a bay ONLY applies to permit holders and authorised vehicles. Wrong contravention = invalid PCN. Should have been Code 81 "Parked in a restricted area in a car park" Mick Playing devil's advocate, the council could say that two contraventions have been committed, 86 and 81 (because article 14 of the order isn't restricted to vehicles which are otherwise parked in accordance with the order), and the council has exercised discretion to pursue the lower level penalty. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 21:50
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,064 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
The contravention covers you not parking wholly within a permitted bay which also includes parking wholly within or mostly within an unauthorised bay, as per cp it is not restricted to parking across prohibited bays.
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Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 00:10
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#16
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
I repeat----the only vehicles which can be given the "wholly within a bay" contravention are those which are authorised to park in the reserved bay--that's what the Order states. It is Wednesbury Unreasonable to penalise someone else.
There is no default position to penalise the OP because of the following sequence:- 1.There has to be a permit authorising a vehicle or permit holder to park; THEN 2. Did that authorised vehicle or permit holder park wholly within the bay? The Council have no choice between Codes 81 & 86 because, as above, that choice is not available to them. It can only be an 81. Article 14 is conditional on the bay being appropriate but in this case is not an appropriate bay for general parking. Mick This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 00:21 |
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Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 00:47
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Article 14 is conditional on the bay being appropriate but in this case is not an appropriate bay for general parking. Sorry Mick where does it say that article 14 is conditional? -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 08:20
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#18
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
@cp8759
14(1) That every part of the vehicle is within the limits of a marked parking bay which shall be the appropriate bay in relation to the type of vehicle. Since the Order refers to "authorised vehicles" in a number of places (i.e Art 9) that IMO becomes a "type" which in our case circles back to my argument that only vehicles authorised to be in the bay can get the contravention. Mick |
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Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 10:34
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
@cp8759 14(1) That every part of the vehicle is within the limits of a marked parking bay which shall be the appropriate bay in relation to the type of vehicle. Since the Order refers to "authorised vehicles" in a number of places (i.e Art 9) that IMO becomes a "type" which in our case circles back to my argument that only vehicles authorised to be in the bay can get the contravention. Mick Fair point, it's arguable. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 13:50
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 11 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,339 |
Thank you Mick - one of the reasons I parked there was that the reserved
Sign is faded. Can’t it therefore be argued that it’s no longer in use for reserved vehicles (I would Had certainly argued that if I had been penalised for it). |
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