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Parking outside parking bay lines, Parking Fine
Lobatron
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 16:06
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Recently on holiday I parked in a council car park in Paignton, Torbay. The space I parked in was right next to a wall at one end but nevertheless not wide enough to fit my car and so I parked over the lines. I received a PCN for doing so and then appealed to the council providing pics of the car and space. The council acknowledged that the car did not fit in that particular space but claimed I could have parked in the bigger space next to it. I am awaiting NTO before I can appeal further or pay the £25 fine they are asking for now or it goes to £50 after a couple of weeks. Unfortunately I did not take pics of the Car park signs as I figured all spaces unless otherwise indicated should be appropriate to park in.
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post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 16:06
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stamfordman
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 16:23
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Post the council's pics. And PCN and rejection. use a site such as https://imgbb.com for pics and post the BBcode embed links.

if council admit it's a space then you ought to win this.
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Lobatron
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 15:57
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Many thanks Stamfordman. I have uploaded my pics as suggested including the rejection letter by the council. The links are below. I’ve misplaced the PCN and will phone the council to get the PCN details on Monday as I cannot access their pics online. Once I get those I will upload them too.

Many thanks again

https://ibb.co/kaqRUU
https://ibb.co/n1fRUU
https://ibb.co/jiEgw9
https://ibb.co/nyfMw9
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stamfordman
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 17:18
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Odd one this - why didn't you park in the larger bay as they suggest? But a bay is a bay and it ought to be big enough.

I would argue that there is only really one bay there so it hardly matters where you were in it. Mind you that's a big car you have.



This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 17:28
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cp8759
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 17:22
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Shows us the PCN, both sides in full please.


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Lobatron
post Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 15:25
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Hi I have uploaded the council pics and you can see that there is a great big beam separating the spaces so not much difference in size - my vehicle is a family car but still less than 1.9 meters wide. The car was full of passengers and I believe parking on either side would have been tight. There would certainly not had been enough room for another car to park next to me without damaging the vehicles - if in theory a vehicle had managed to park next to me they would not had been able to open their doors. I have misplaced the PCN and have asked the council for a copy.


https://ibb.co/fRZvwL
https://ibb.co/kqr8GL

Thanks
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Dwain
post Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 16:09
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My BMW GS Adventure bike would fill that space, never mind the 4 series, and no one can say the M4 is a big car, I think the only car that would fit in that space would be a.

https://goo.gl/images/X6JaC7




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Earl Purple
post Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 16:27
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QUOTE (Dwain @ Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 17:09) *
My BMW GS Adventure bike would fill that space, never mind the 4 series, and no one can say the M4 is a big car, I think the only car that would fit in that space would be a.

https://goo.gl/images/X6JaC7


Maybe it was reserved for Delboy then
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Lobatron
post Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 20:21
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QUOTE (Dwain @ Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 17:09) *
My BMW GS Adventure bike would fill that space, never mind the 4 series, and no one can say the M4 is a big car, I think the only car that would fit in that space would be a.

https://goo.gl/images/X6JaC7


Del boy’s reserved sign has badly faded probably because he couldn’t even park in that space
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Lobatron
post Wed, 31 Oct 2018 - 10:05
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Hi I have received the NTO from Torbay Council the main part of which can be viewed on the link https://ibb.co/mysrk0
Any advice on how to respond will be greatly appreciated.
Unfortunately I cannot get hold of the original parking ticket.
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cp8759
post Wed, 31 Oct 2018 - 15:20
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Show us the rest of the NtO just in case there's any errors.


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Lobatron
post Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 16:22
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Here is the complete NTO in four parts below

https://ibb.co/e6Rxf0
https://ibb.co/bOr8nf
https://ibb.co/kir8nf
https://ibb.co/c9DXDL
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 17:56
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The Order for this car park details reserved bays at Article 8 and Article 9:-

https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...-Order-2017.pdf

Reserved bays for this car park are noted on page 20.

There is a clear marking that these are reserved bays in the Council's photos.

So the OP shouldn't have parked there anyway because his vehicle was not an authorised one.

You get the contravention for breaching Art 8(4) or Art 9(4) not for failure to park wholly within a bay. Under the Order failure to park wholly within a bay ONLY applies to permit holders and authorised vehicles.

Wrong contravention = invalid PCN.

Should have been Code 81 "Parked in a restricted area in a car park"

Mick



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cp8759
post Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 20:42
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 17:56) *
The Order for this car park details reserved bays at Article 8 and Article 9:-

https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...-Order-2017.pdf

Reserved bays for this car park are noted on page 20.

There is a clear marking that these are reserved bays in the Council's photos.

So the OP shouldn't have parked there anyway because his vehicle was not an authorised one.

You get the contravention for breaching Art 8(4) or Art 9(4) not for failure to park wholly within a bay. Under the Order failure to park wholly within a bay ONLY applies to permit holders and authorised vehicles.

Wrong contravention = invalid PCN.

Should have been Code 81 "Parked in a restricted area in a car park"

Mick

Playing devil's advocate, the council could say that two contraventions have been committed, 86 and 81 (because article 14 of the order isn't restricted to vehicles which are otherwise parked in accordance with the order), and the council has exercised discretion to pursue the lower level penalty.


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hcandersen
post Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 21:50
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The contravention covers you not parking wholly within a permitted bay which also includes parking wholly within or mostly within an unauthorised bay, as per cp it is not restricted to parking across prohibited bays.
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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 00:10
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I repeat----the only vehicles which can be given the "wholly within a bay" contravention are those which are authorised to park in the reserved bay--that's what the Order states. It is Wednesbury Unreasonable to penalise someone else.

There is no default position to penalise the OP because of the following sequence:-

1.There has to be a permit authorising a vehicle or permit holder to park; THEN
2. Did that authorised vehicle or permit holder park wholly within the bay?

The Council have no choice between Codes 81 & 86 because, as above, that choice is not available to them. It can only be an 81.

Article 14 is conditional on the bay being appropriate but in this case is not an appropriate bay for general parking.


Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 00:21
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cp8759
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 00:47
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 00:10) *
Article 14 is conditional on the bay being appropriate but in this case is not an appropriate bay for general parking.

Sorry Mick where does it say that article 14 is conditional?


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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 08:20
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@cp8759

14(1) That every part of the vehicle is within the limits of a marked parking bay which shall be the appropriate bay in relation to the type of vehicle.

Since the Order refers to "authorised vehicles" in a number of places (i.e Art 9) that IMO becomes a "type" which in our case circles back to my argument that only vehicles authorised to be in the bay can get the contravention.

Mick
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cp8759
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 10:34
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 08:20) *
@cp8759

14(1) That every part of the vehicle is within the limits of a marked parking bay which shall be the appropriate bay in relation to the type of vehicle.

Since the Order refers to "authorised vehicles" in a number of places (i.e Art 9) that IMO becomes a "type" which in our case circles back to my argument that only vehicles authorised to be in the bay can get the contravention.

Mick

Fair point, it's arguable.


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Lobatron
post Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 13:50
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Thank you Mick - one of the reasons I parked there was that the reserved
Sign is faded. Can’t it therefore be argued that it’s no longer in use for reserved vehicles (I would
Had certainly argued that if I had been penalised for it).
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