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Entry Exit Mixed Up - Please Help Me Appeal
newbie20
post Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 13:30
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Hi,

Here is a PCN from a private parking firm for a Tesco car park. They have taken exit as entry time and entry the following day as exit time - this is clearly seen in the pictures they sent. Car is going out (picture shows back of car) on incident entry and the car is coming in (picture shows front of car) on incident exit.

Can you please help how best to appeal and cancel this as the driver did not stay overnight in the car park and the parking firm/camera got the entry and exit mixed up?

Thanks for taking the time to review and respond.

This post has been edited by newbie20: Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 16:45
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post Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 13:30
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DWMB2
post Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 13:38
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First step edit your post - "the driver" drove and you'll deal with this as the keeper.

Let's see the notice you received - both pages, redact persona info but leave everything else on, dates/times etc. - you'll need to use an external site like Imgur for this.


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Redx
post Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 14:00
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I would suggest that it's double dipping, one entrance and one exit on day 1 , Ditto on day 2 , plenty of information on double dipping and orphan images !

Name the parking company, plus host redacted pictures of both sides of the PCN on imgur or a similar site, leaving the dates showing
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newbie20
post Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 17:34
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thanks Redx/DWMB2. Here are the pics,

Attached Image

Attached Image
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DWMB2
post Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 17:47
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You could send the below appeal as the keeper:

Dear Sirs

I have just received your Parking Charge Notice xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

The vehicle was not present at this site for 16 hours as claimed in your notice. Your defective ANPR system has failed to record two visits. You have therefore accessed my details on the DVLA registered keeper database without reasonable cause.

In addition, you have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to give notice of keeper liability as prescribed by section 9 (2) (f) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper. There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or your debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records.

Yours etc

If online, be very careful there aren't any tick boxes etc. that force you to reveal who was driving, and check your spam emails daily. If by post, send it first class and get a free certificate of posting from the post office.


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Redx
post Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 17:47
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Horizon parking , not compliant with Pofa, so use a typical template appeal by member Ostell, as keeper, no blabbing about who was driving ( no keeper liability )

Add a line to mention that THE DRIVER made 2 short visits on multiple occasions, so their ANPR system is flawed and they should check orphan images and then cancel the PCN because the driver did not breach any contract , exits always follow an entrance, not the reverse
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newbie20
post Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 18:07
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QUOTE (DWMB2 @ Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 18:47) *
You could send the below appeal as the keeper:

Dear Sirs

I have just received your Parking Charge Notice xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

The vehicle was not present at this site for 16 hours as claimed in your notice. Your defective ANPR system has failed to record two visits. You have therefore accessed my details on the DVLA registered keeper database without reasonable cause.

In addition, you have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to give notice of keeper liability as prescribed by section 9 (2) (f) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper. There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or your debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records.

Yours etc

If online, be very careful there aren't any tick boxes etc. that force you to reveal who was driving, and check your spam emails daily. If by post, send it first class and get a free certificate of posting from the post office.


Thanks very much for this DWMB2 - This is very helpful. I will send as per above.

QUOTE (Redx @ Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 18:47) *
Horizon parking , not compliant with Pofa, so use a typical template appeal by member Ostell, as keeper, no blabbing about who was driving ( no keeper liability )

Add a line to mention that THE DRIVER made 2 short visits on multiple occasions, so their ANPR system is flawed and they should check orphan images and then cancel the PCN because the driver did not breach any contract , exits always follow an entrance, not the reverse


Thanks Redx, appreciate it.

This post has been edited by newbie20: Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 19:32
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hcandersen
post Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 20:01
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Why not simplify matters!

I refer to your PCN dated **** which claims that 'on 16 September ........ vehicle *** breached the terms .......l.'

In support and as a secondary matter, the PCN shows photos of my vehicle entering the site at ** on 17th September and leaving at ***** on 16th.

Self-evidently this is nonsense.

The PCN fails to specify correctly 'the period pf parking to which the notice relates' and therefore must be cancelled.




I prefer this direct approach as opposed to 'You have therefore accessed my details on the DVLA registered keeper database without reasonable cause. ' because IMO this has no direct bearing on the Act's provisions and therefore specific grounds for challenge, as opposed to embarrassment.
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DWMB2
post Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 20:09
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QUOTE
Why not simplify matters!

Because previous cases on here show that the PoFA template I posted above very often lead to Horizon cancelling, hence why I included it alongside the double dip issue.


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hcandersen
post Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 20:44
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Why even introduce 'double-dip'?

The PCN fails to comply with the most basic of the Act's provisions i.e. it fails to state correctly the breach in respect of which the parking charge is being demanded.

Double-dip introduces the concept of there actually being a breach with the wording of the PCN a mere slip. Why take this risk?

Self-evidently and without going into detail about whether subsequent wording, which only has to conform as regards meaning and not be stated word-for-word, meets the Act's requirements the PCN fails to meet even the most basic requirements.
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DWMB2
post Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 21:14
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 21:44) *
Why even introduce 'double-dip'?

Because it shows that even if the notice had complied with PoFA, which it hasn't, they still wouldn't have been correct in issuing a charge as the vehicle did not breach the terms and conditions of parking. I disagree that pointing out the failure of their ANPR equipment 'introduces the concept' of there being a breach - that concept has already been introduced by Horizon (wrongly) claiming there has been a breach.

With this being Horizon, I do think there's value in making use of Ostell's template wording, on the basis that there's evidence from this forum that Horizon often cancel when it is used. Here's an alternative that makes mention of the fair point you make about their failure to specify the period of parking, as a result of the ANPR error:

Dear Sirs

I have just received your Parking Charge Notice xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

The vehicle was not present at this site for 16 hours as claimed in your notice. Your defective ANPR system has failed to record two visits. You have therefore failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to failing to specify the period of parking to which the notice relates, as required by section 9 (2) (a) of the Act. You have also failed to give notice of keeper liability as prescribed by section 9 (2) (f) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or your debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records.

Yours etc


This post has been edited by DWMB2: Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 21:15


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Redx
post Tue, 4 Oct 2022 - 07:20
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As above , that is an excellent appeal based on 2 fronts and the OP should use it , appealing as keeper ( no blabbing about who was driving )

Horizon implied the breach, the OP is denying any breach , pointing out their errors and failures, without divulging who was driving
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Jlc
post Tue, 4 Oct 2022 - 08:01
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They appear to be in breach of the following: (BPA Code of Practice v8 / my emphasis)

QUOTE
22.2 Quality checks: before you issue a parking charge
notice you must carry out a manual quality check of the
ANPR images to reduce errors and make sure that it is
appropriate to take action.


Looks like could be misuse of personal information to me.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 4 Oct 2022 - 08:03


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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PaulPaul1308
post Tue, 4 Oct 2022 - 10:07
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 20:01) *
Why not simplify matters!

I refer to your PCN dated **** which claims that 'on 16 September ........ vehicle *** breached the terms .......l.'

In support and as a secondary matter, the PCN shows photos of my vehicle entering the site at ** on 17th September and leaving at ***** on 16th.

Self-evidently this is nonsense. .


No it doesn't, the pictures show that it entered on the 15th and left on the 16th. I very much doubt that their systems would ever issue a ticket the way that you are saying.
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Jlc
post Tue, 4 Oct 2022 - 11:13
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QUOTE (PaulPaul1308 @ Tue, 4 Oct 2022 - 11:07) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 20:01) *
Why not simplify matters!

I refer to your PCN dated **** which claims that 'on 16 September ........ vehicle *** breached the terms .......l.'

In support and as a secondary matter, the PCN shows photos of my vehicle entering the site at ** on 17th September and leaving at ***** on 16th.

Self-evidently this is nonsense. .


No it doesn't, the pictures show that it entered on the 15th and left on the 16th. I very much doubt that their systems would ever issue a ticket the way that you are saying.

But the entry shot shows the car leaving and the exit shot shows the car arriving.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 4 Oct 2022 - 11:16
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Indeed, as spelt out by the OP.

QUOTE (newbie20 @ Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 14:30) *
this is clearly seen in the pictures they sent. Car is going out (picture shows back of car) on incident entry and the car is coming in (picture shows front of car) on incident exit.



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S172's
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newbie20
post Wed, 5 Oct 2022 - 13:15
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QUOTE (DWMB2 @ Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 22:14) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 3 Oct 2022 - 21:44) *
Why even introduce 'double-dip'?

Because it shows that even if the notice had complied with PoFA, which it hasn't, they still wouldn't have been correct in issuing a charge as the vehicle did not breach the terms and conditions of parking. I disagree that pointing out the failure of their ANPR equipment 'introduces the concept' of there being a breach - that concept has already been introduced by Horizon (wrongly) claiming there has been a breach.

With this being Horizon, I do think there's value in making use of Ostell's template wording, on the basis that there's evidence from this forum that Horizon often cancel when it is used. Here's an alternative that makes mention of the fair point you make about their failure to specify the period of parking, as a result of the ANPR error:

Dear Sirs

I have just received your Parking Charge Notice xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

The vehicle was not present at this site for 16 hours as claimed in your notice. Your defective ANPR system has failed to record two visits. You have therefore failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to failing to specify the period of parking to which the notice relates, as required by section 9 (2) (a) of the Act. You have also failed to give notice of keeper liability as prescribed by section 9 (2) (f) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or your debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records.

Yours etc



thanks DWMB2 for sharing the updated wording - much appreciated.

thanks everyone for your contributions - this has been a great help and I hope this goes away after the suggested response.
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newbie20
post Wed, 19 Oct 2022 - 14:53
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Thanks to everyone who helped on this - I got the confirmation that PCN has been cancelled.
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DWMB2
post Wed, 19 Oct 2022 - 17:22
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Good result icon_thumleft.gif well done and thanks for the update


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Redx
post Wed, 19 Oct 2022 - 19:00
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QUOTE (newbie20 @ Wed, 19 Oct 2022 - 15:53) *
Thanks to everyone who helped on this - I got the confirmation that PCN has been cancelled.

Good result, the proper outcome !
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