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PCN ISSUE TIME LIMIT ON LEASED VEHICLE, CONTRAVENTION 33B USING A ROUTE RESTRICTED TO CERTAIN VEHICLES BUSES
Sam79
post Sat, 18 May 2019 - 14:11
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[attachment=64126:20190518..._resized.jpg]Hello all

I have got a Penalty Charge notice from Harrow Council London. date of notice 07/05/19 but date of alleged contravention 26/03/16 over 3 years ago !!!

CONTRAVENTION 33B USING A ROUTE RESTRICTED TO CERTAIN VEHICLES BUSES ONLY

My question is this is a leased vehicle now returned to the lease company, also 3 years after the contravention took place have i got a defence is so what should i say ?

Thanks


[attachment=64125:20190518..._resized.jpg]

This post has been edited by Sam79: Sat, 18 May 2019 - 14:31
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post Sat, 18 May 2019 - 14:11
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 18 May 2019 - 14:17
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they dont get 3 years to serve so this should be fairly easy

more later


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stamfordman
post Sat, 18 May 2019 - 14:19
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If the PCN is in your name (as it seems to be - you may want to blank out name and address) then you must deal with it.

The length of time is grounds to contest - you were not the keeper so it's hard to believe that a PCN served within 28 days to the lease company was not acted on by the company as it would have been liable. This probably means the council has been sitting on it for 3 years...

Is the date of the contravention likely to be correct?

Have you moved?

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sat, 18 May 2019 - 14:19
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Sam79
post Sat, 18 May 2019 - 14:36
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 18 May 2019 - 15:19) *
If the PCN is in your name (as it seems to be - you may want to blank out name and address) then you must deal with it.

The length of time is grounds to contest - you were not the keeper so it's hard to believe that a PCN served within 28 days to the lease company was not acted on by the company as it would have been liable. This probably means the council has been sitting on it for 3 years...

Is the date of the contravention likely to be correct?

Have you moved?


thanks blanked now

not sure if date is correct as a few of us use the car but none of us remember doing it.

not moved

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 18 May 2019 - 15:17) *
they dont get 3 years to serve so this should be fairly easy

more later


thanks let me know what i can write back please
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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 18 May 2019 - 16:51
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Has the lease company been in touch, since the original PCN must have gone to them not the lessee?

How long was the lease?

Mick
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Sam79
post Sat, 18 May 2019 - 18:07
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sat, 18 May 2019 - 17:51) *
Has the lease company been in touch, since the original PCN must have gone to them not the lessee?

How long was the lease?

Mick


no not had any letters from the lease company. it was a 3 year lease
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cp8759
post Sun, 19 May 2019 - 16:52
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This is fairly simple:

------------

Dear Sir or Madam,

Section 6(1) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 imposes a time limit of 28 days for service of a Penalty Charge Notice, subject to certain exceptions. Where a previous PCN has been cancelled (either because the original PCN was served on another person or because the adjudicator or the county court has ordered its cancellation), the enforcement authority gets a further 28 days to serve a fresh PCN. Where there are issued with obtaining the details of the registered keeper from DVLA, under certain limited circumstances the enforcement authority has up to a further six months to serve a penalty charge notice.

The Penalty Charge Notice in this instance has been served 3 years, 1 month and 14 days after the alleged contravention is said to have occurred, this period of 1,140 days greatly exceeds the primary limitation period of 28 days and the enforcement authority has no powers to pursue a penalty charge notice this late.

The penalty charge notice has therefore been served out of time and must be cancelled. Should you reject this representation, you are invited to disclose the reasons why you believe you have a power to serve a Penalty Charge Notice over three years after the date of the alleged contravention.


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Sam79
post Sun, 19 May 2019 - 22:42
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 19 May 2019 - 17:52) *
This is fairly simple:

------------

Dear Sir or Madam,

Section 6(1) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 imposes a time limit of 28 days for service of a Penalty Charge Notice, subject to certain exceptions. Where a previous PCN has been cancelled (either because the original PCN was served on another person or because the adjudicator or the county court has ordered its cancellation), the enforcement authority gets a further 28 days to serve a fresh PCN. Where there are issued with obtaining the details of the registered keeper from DVLA, under certain limited circumstances the enforcement authority has up to a further six months to serve a penalty charge notice.

The Penalty Charge Notice in this instance has been served 3 years, 1 month and 14 days after the alleged contravention is said to have occurred, this period of 1,140 days greatly exceeds the primary limitation period of 28 days and the enforcement authority has no powers to pursue a penalty charge notice this late.

The penalty charge notice has therefore been served out of time and must be cancelled. Should you reject this representation, you are invited to disclose the reasons why you believe you have a power to serve a Penalty Charge Notice over three years after the date of the alleged contravention.


thank you very much
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Sam79
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 21:50
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 19 May 2019 - 17:52) *
This is fairly simple:

------------

Dear Sir or Madam,

Section 6(1) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 imposes a time limit of 28 days for service of a Penalty Charge Notice, subject to certain exceptions. Where a previous PCN has been cancelled (either because the original PCN was served on another person or because the adjudicator or the county court has ordered its cancellation), the enforcement authority gets a further 28 days to serve a fresh PCN. Where there are issued with obtaining the details of the registered keeper from DVLA, under certain limited circumstances the enforcement authority has up to a further six months to serve a penalty charge notice.

The Penalty Charge Notice in this instance has been served 3 years, 1 month and 14 days after the alleged contravention is said to have occurred, this period of 1,140 days greatly exceeds the primary limitation period of 28 days and the enforcement authority has no powers to pursue a penalty charge notice this late.

The penalty charge notice has therefore been served out of time and must be cancelled. Should you reject this representation, you are invited to disclose the reasons why you believe you have a power to serve a Penalty Charge Notice over three years after the date of the alleged contravention.


Hello

So I sent the above reply and the council have rejected it

Their reply was is attached

Any advice would be appreciated should i appeal ? Also its a lease vehicle not hire vehicle as they state this may be irrelevant but thought i'd clarify

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Incandescent
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 22:01
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Well, of course it is the usual tosh called a Fob-Off Letter. I would now register an appeal at the London Tribunals with the appeal as sent to them, plus, of course, pointing out the errors in their absolutely ridiculous letter. One thing you should NOT do is pay-up.
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Sam79
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 22:52
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 23:01) *
Well, of course it is the usual tosh called a Fob-Off Letter. I would now register an appeal at the London Tribunals with the appeal as sent to them, plus, of course, pointing out the errors in their absolutely ridiculous letter. One thing you should NOT do is pay-up.


Thanks so basically same appeal plus what should i point out from their rejection letter ? That they may have sent the lease company the pcn within 28 days but failed to send me it within 6 months?
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Neil B
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 23:51
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QUOTE (Sam79 @ Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 23:52) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 23:01) *
Well, of course it is the usual tosh called a Fob-Off Letter. I would now register an appeal at the London Tribunals with the appeal as sent to them, plus, of course, pointing out the errors in their absolutely ridiculous letter. One thing you should NOT do is pay-up.


Thanks so basically same appeal plus what should i point out from their rejection letter ? That they may have sent the lease company the pcn within 28 days but failed to send me it within 6 months?

No not exactly. 6 months may not be relevant.

They mentioned the Hire Co making a Statutory Declaration. We don't know the reason or what happened thereafter.

But following such a SD they had 28 days from the court revoking order of the first PCN to serve a new one - but on who?
It depends on what grounds the hire co made a SD and further depends what happened next. A minefield.

No matter how complex it became, 3 years is still unacceptable imo.

What we need is a full case history log for the pcn, start to finish.


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Sam79
post Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 01:06
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 00:51) *
QUOTE (Sam79 @ Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 23:52) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 23:01) *
Well, of course it is the usual tosh called a Fob-Off Letter. I would now register an appeal at the London Tribunals with the appeal as sent to them, plus, of course, pointing out the errors in their absolutely ridiculous letter. One thing you should NOT do is pay-up.


Thanks so basically same appeal plus what should i point out from their rejection letter ? That they may have sent the lease company the pcn within 28 days but failed to send me it within 6 months?

No not exactly. 6 months may not be relevant.

They mentioned the Hire Co making a Statutory Declaration. We don't know the reason or what happened thereafter.

But following such a SD they had 28 days from the court revoking order of the first PCN to serve a new one - but on who?
It depends on what grounds the hire co made a SD and further depends what happened next. A minefield.

No matter how complex it became, 3 years is still unacceptable imo.

What we need is a full case history log for the pcn, start to finish.


Ok so will try get the lease company to clarify the history
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Neil B
post Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 14:47
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QUOTE (Sam79 @ Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 02:06) *
Ok so will try get the lease company to clarify the history

and the council, for the full log.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Sam79
post Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 16:18
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Dear Sir or Madam,

Section 6(1) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 imposes a time limit of 28 days for service of a Penalty Charge Notice, subject to certain exceptions. Where a previous PCN has been cancelled (either because the original PCN was served on another person or because the adjudicator or the county court has ordered its cancellation), the enforcement authority gets a further 28 days to serve a fresh PCN. Where there are issued with obtaining the details of the registered keeper from DVLA, under certain limited circumstances the enforcement authority has up to a further six months to serve a penalty charge notice.

The Penalty Charge Notice in this instance has been served 3 years, 1 month and 14 days after the alleged contravention is said to have occurred, this period of 1,140 days greatly exceeds the primary limitation period of 28 days and the enforcement authority has no powers to pursue a penalty charge notice this late.

The penalty charge notice has therefore been served out of time and must be cancelled. Should you reject this representation, you are invited to disclose the reasons why you believe you have a power to serve a Penalty Charge Notice over three years after the date of the alleged contravention.

The above was sent to the local authority but the local authority has failed to give me a detailed reason why the PCN was sent to me after over THREE years after the alleged contravention. They have explained some of the history but not in full detail.

Further to this after three years it is unreasonable to expect us to recall the circumstances of the contravention, who the actual driver was (i believe there were 5 registered drivers for this vehicle, all have denied the contravention), Whether the plates were cloned, etc

detailed grounds to follow

should i put the above in the "Further information about your appeal" section or just leave it as -detailed grounds to follow ? also would the Grounds of appeal be Statutory Declaration\Witness Statement ?

This post has been edited by Sam79: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 16:20
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cp8759
post Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 18:43
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Just leave "detailed grounds to follow", the council is required to send a copy of your formal representations to the tribunal anyway if they contest the case, so no point in duplicating.

You didn't make an SD so that's not relevant to you, your ground would be the alleged contravention did not occur, and the penalty exceeds the amount due.


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No, I am not a lawyer.
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Sam79
post Sun, 23 Jun 2019 - 20:26
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 19:43) *
Just leave "detailed grounds to follow", the council is required to send a copy of your formal representations to the tribunal anyway if they contest the case, so no point in duplicating.

You didn't make an SD so that's not relevant to you, your ground would be the alleged contravention did not occur, and the penalty exceeds the amount due.


thanks again
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Sam79
post Thu, 4 Jul 2019 - 23:53
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So the fleet company sent the below

Thank you for contacting our customer service team regarding a fine query.



I have seen that you have now provided the reference number HR87146654 and I have attached a copy of this for your records.



I can confirm the following details;

Bus Lane Charge – offence date 26/03/16 at 19;31

PCN issued 12/04/2016 – this was never received by us.

Charge certificate issued 26/05/16



On 30/06/2016 we wrote to Issuing Authority and advised that we had not received the PCN only the charge certificate and requested that they send the original fine to us.



01/04/19 Council wrote to us to advise they were in receipt of our statutory declaration but could not find representation. Could we send again, which we did.



We then received further correspondence, we provided your name and address and contract hire dates for the council to contact you direct.



When you phoned we tried to contact Harrow Council but they advised that they had accepted transfer into your name and would not speak to us.



I have attached all correspondence sent and received by Harrow Council.



Should you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact us.

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Neil B
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 00:05
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QUOTE (Sam79 @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 00:53) *
I have attached all correspondence sent and received by Harrow Council.

Let's have a butchers then.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Sam79
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 00:35
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the attached file by the lease company is too large upload is it needed ? if so what should i do to upload it

QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 01:05) *
QUOTE (Sam79 @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 00:53) *
I have attached all correspondence sent and received by Harrow Council.

Let's have a butchers then.


Hello Neil

the file is too large too upload can you suggest what i can do its on pdf

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