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Council Parking map layout
cpu2007
post Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 14:22
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HI everyone,
I hope this is the right section.
A few years ago I remember receiving a ticket for parking on a single yellow line, thanks to the help from this site, I managed win the appeal as the documentation from the council showed that they didn't update the layout,the parking wasn't supposed to be yellow line but just a bay so there were discrepancies between what the layout was showing and the actual area where the car was parked.

what I am wondering is, is there a public record of these documents that can be accessed ? There are a few streets I'd like to check in salford and manchester and was just wondering what the council map shows about those streets.

Thank you
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post Wed, 18 Apr 2018 - 14:22
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southpaw82
post Thu, 19 Apr 2018 - 18:03
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Para 34 and 35 of the same document I believe:

QUOTE
34. Where the legal duty only extends to making the information available for inspection, it cannot automatically be considered as reasonably accessible and so exempt under section 21(1) by virtue of section 21(2)(b). One example of this is as follows:

Under the Local Government Act 2000, a principal council has a duty to make certain information available following the making of executive decisions, but for inspection only.

35. However, information that is only available for inspection can still be considered to be reasonably accessible to the applicant under other parts of section 21. In this context, and in view of the necessary test of reasonableness, this means that in most cases an applicant will need to present strong arguments that the information was not reasonably accessible.


The example seems analogous to the requirement imposed in respect of TROs. The ICO seems to think it likely to fall within the s 21 exemption.

If you felt particularly strongly you could always ask them I suppose. Ultimately though, the information is available one way or the other so the discussion is somewhat moot.


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cp8759
post Thu, 19 Apr 2018 - 18:21
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 19 Apr 2018 - 19:03) *
Para 34 and 35 of the same document I believe:

QUOTE
34. Where the legal duty only extends to making the information available for inspection, it cannot automatically be considered as reasonably accessible and so exempt under section 21(1) by virtue of section 21(2)(b). One example of this is as follows:

Under the Local Government Act 2000, a principal council has a duty to make certain information available following the making of executive decisions, but for inspection only.

35. However, information that is only available for inspection can still be considered to be reasonably accessible to the applicant under other parts of section 21. In this context, and in view of the necessary test of reasonableness, this means that in most cases an applicant will need to present strong arguments that the information was not reasonably accessible.


The example seems analogous to the requirement imposed in respect of TROs. The ICO seems to think it likely to fall within the s 21 exemption.

Say I live in Yorkshire, go on holiday in Cornwall and get home to a reg 10 PCN. Considering the council needs to take my particular circumstances into account (as I'm the "particular applicant"), is the TRO "reasonably accessible" to me because I could drive back to Cornwall to inspect it? In my view the answer has to be no.

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 19 Apr 2018 - 19:03) *
If you felt particularly strongly you could always ask them I suppose. Ultimately though, the information is available one way or the other so the discussion is somewhat moot.

Agreed, I'll just say that I've never, ever had an FOI request for a TRO refused, so I really don't feel strongly about it at all. If I ever get a refusal notice, we'll find out what the ICO (and if need be the tribunal) thinks.


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southpaw82
post Thu, 19 Apr 2018 - 18:31
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In practice they tend to be sent out by email on request so it’s unlikely ever to be an issue.


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cpu2007
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 08:20
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sorry guys, this has gone quite technical for me. I understand there are different views on this matter.

My initial thought was to send an email to the council and ask for TRO(which I believe will contain the map/layout of all the bays,yellow,double lines of the specified location?)

However, going through all the posts, it looks like a different kind of request needs to be made? Can I know how this request is made(i suppose it's called FOI)

is this where the FOI requests are made?
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/
Thanks

This post has been edited by cpu2007: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 08:21
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Fredd
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 09:07
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QUOTE (cpu2007 @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 09:20) *
sorry guys, this has gone quite technical for me. I understand there are different views on this matter.

Just email them asking for the TRO. If they have it electronically they'll just send it to you, if it's available online they'll tell you where to look. If they tell you that it's only available for inspection at their premises or something like that then you can consider whether some more formal approach is better, but in the first instance a simple request is likely to be quicker and easier.


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cpu2007
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 10:26
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Thank you I will give this a go. is there a specific email I can use? for example for salford council I can't see a general email or something specific to my query.

This post has been edited by cpu2007: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 10:30
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Fredd
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 11:03
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QUOTE (cpu2007 @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 11:26) *
Thank you I will give this a go. is there a specific email I can use? for example for salford council I can't see a general email or something specific to my query.

Why don't you try going via their contact page?

Or you could just go to their TRO page.


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cpu2007
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 11:15
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I checked both sections, that's why I asked if there's any specific email I can go through. The contact page has different sections but none seems to be relevant to my case in regards to requesting a TRO. That's why I was asking if there was a general contact email or what category will better suit my case.

I also checked the TRO page for the streets I was looking for but they do not have that street available there.
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Fredd
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 11:31
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I'd probably try Parking Services. Or just phone them on 0161 793 2500 and ask them.


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cpu2007
post Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 11:23
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I've received the TRO. It contains different rules as well as sections of the street with different restrictions. However there's no MAP and it's difficult to get an understanding of how much of a stretch is restricted from the description only, ie:
QUOTE
South side from the western kerb line of Encombe place, in a westerly direction for a distance of 10 metres


How do I get the map?
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southpaw82
post Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 11:48
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Maybe there isn’t a map?


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Fredd
post Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 11:49
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QUOTE (cpu2007 @ Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 12:23) *
I've received the TRO. It contains different rules as well as sections of the street with different restrictions. However there's no MAP and it's difficult to get an understanding of how much of a stretch is restricted from the description only, ie:
QUOTE
South side from the western kerb line of Encombe place, in a westerly direction for a distance of 10 metres


How do I get the map?

TROs are always worded like that. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, if you also want a map then why don't you ask them? If they have one (as they seem to for some other TROs at least) then presumably they'll supply that as well.

I have to say that looking at Google Maps "South side [presumably of Cleminson Street] from the western kerb line of Encombe place, in a westerly direction for a distance of 10 metres" sounds pretty precise, and difficult to misinterpret.


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cpu2007
post Mon, 23 Apr 2018 - 12:52
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The reason why I asked this is because I thought a map always comes with the TRO.
Every time I appealed to an adjudicator, the council always sent me a map

Had I known it wasn't included, I would have explicitly asked for it.

@Fredd yes it is precise to some extent but easy to misinterpret. For example I've seen locations that have single yellow line and then it suddenly stops and starts again a few metres after. Now unless I go there with a measurement, I don't know whether that gap in between those single yellow line (on a street that doesn't justify such break) is as a result of a mistake,intentional or a yellow line that exists in the TRO but not on the actual street.

A visual map makes such situations easy to validate.

I'll ask for a map.
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