PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Havering - One Parking Solution Ltd., Notice to Keeper
Enceladus
post Tue, 16 Jun 2020 - 10:53
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5,721
Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Member No.: 25,447



I would appreciate any help with this Notice to Keeper that I've been asked to help with. Private parking charges are not really my forte.
This PCN seems to be a bit odd. The location appears to be a Council run car park on St. Nicholas Ave, behind Sainsburys and Savers just before Northwood Avenue.

I would expect to see a Council PCN not a PPC. So I've contacted the driver and asked for confirmation of the location and photos of any signs.

This concerns a London Taxi. Apparently the driver dropped a passenger off in the car park to collect from one of the shops and then waited to pick him up again. The driver was under the impression that the car park was free, at least for a short stay and might have failed to get a ticket. They didn't notice any signs on the way in. This might be because the sign is on the street between the entrance and the exit. Council car parks and on-street are currently free during the pandemic.

So how best to proceed, assuming the car park is no longer council and is actually private.

Thanks,



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 15)
Advertisement
post Tue, 16 Jun 2020 - 10:53
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Jlc
post Tue, 16 Jun 2020 - 11:09
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 41,505
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: Planet Earth
Member No.: 49,223



It must have been infested quite recently. See here.

Someone has stuck up ANPR cameras.

Worth checking that the council PPO's have been rescinded.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Enceladus
post Tue, 16 Jun 2020 - 14:55
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5,721
Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Member No.: 25,447



@Jlc
Well spotted. I've checked and that 'new management' sign is no longer in-situ.

So far as I can piece together the car park was leased by Havering Council. It looks like the lease has recently been relinquished by Havering and the site acquired by some other party who now operate their own private car park. Probably pending planning approval to build on the site.

I'm struggling to find when the Parking Places Order has been amended accordingly.

Anyway the Council signs are no longer present today. Below are the replacements. Looks like our driver might have failed to buy a ticket for a £1 as they assumed this was still a Council operated car park and such places are currently free of charge in Havering.

How best to proceed?

Thanks,

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dave65
post Tue, 16 Jun 2020 - 15:02
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,887
Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Member No.: 78,368



By that £100 is hidden well away in the small print, it should be more predominant.
Not a defence on its own thou.

This post has been edited by Dave65: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 - 15:03
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Tue, 16 Jun 2020 - 15:06
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 41,505
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: Planet Earth
Member No.: 49,223



That's got to be some of the worst signage. The core term is virtually hidden.

Another angle is that the driver did not accept the terms of parking and left. (It's a taxi and was doing what taxi's do!)

They are mildly litigious so a court claim is possible. Perhaps offer the £1 tariff and something to cover the admin?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Tue, 16 Jun 2020 - 20:11
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17,088
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



Everybody is talking Havering but the location on the NTK is Elm Park Car Park Hornchurch. The post code is Horncburch and includes an Elm Park Avenue and and St Nicholas Avenue. The car park in post #2 is st Nicholas Ave West car park and not the one in the NTK. Are have I got this horribly wrong
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Tue, 16 Jun 2020 - 20:20
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 41,505
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: Planet Earth
Member No.: 49,223



My link is the correct one - just around the corner here.

It's Havering council...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Enceladus
post Mon, 29 Jun 2020 - 14:28
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5,721
Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Member No.: 25,447



Some googling suggests that the land owner terminated the lease to Havering Council at short notice around a year ago. The landowner then commenced operating a private car-park. Possibly the original landowner sold the car-park on as part of the process.

Try as I might I can't find any reference on Havering's website or the London Gazette to the car-park being delisted from the PPO.

So I emailed Havering and asked for details of any amendment to the off-street parking places order delisting the car-park. Nearly two weeks ago and I have no response.
Havering had suspended all charging in their car-parks at the relevant time.

So a challenge on the basis that the car-park is still subject to the PPO and no charge was payable can't hurt. That said all the Council's signs appear to have been removed.
In addition, inadequate signage due to small print. And this was a taxi dropping off.

Can we say that the requirements of the POFA have not been complied with and that the RK can't be compelled to name the driver?

All help appreciated.

Thanks,

This post has been edited by Enceladus: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 - 14:29
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Mon, 29 Jun 2020 - 15:05
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17,088
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



There is not a requirement anyway to identify the driver.

With a PPO in place then it is not relevant land for the purpose of POFA
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Umkomaas
post Sun, 5 Jul 2020 - 09:51
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,124
Joined: 8 Feb 2013
Member No.: 59,842



QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 16 Jun 2020 - 16:06) *
That's got to be some of the worst signage. The core term is virtually hidden.

Another angle is that the driver did not accept the terms of parking and left. (It's a taxi and was doing what taxi's do!)

They are mildly litigious so a court claim is possible. Perhaps offer the £1 tariff and something to cover the admin?

@OP - read what a Judge recently said about OPS signage. Something that could be referred to should it get to a court case.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discus...traint-order/p1

OPS far from out of the woods, the Judge threatening them with the possibility of a Civil Restraint Order. I suspect they will tread very carefully about issuing any new proceedings.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Enceladus
post Wed, 15 Jul 2020 - 00:22
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5,721
Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Member No.: 25,447



Still no response from Havering to my request for the Off Street Parking Places Order showing that the St Nicholas Avenue West car park has been delisted. And try as I might I can't find anything relevant in the Gazette.

Anyway the RK submitted an appeal and made it clear they were not prepared to name the driver since the Protection of Freedoms Act doesn't apply to the car park since the PPO has not been rescinded. Plus some other points, including the signage.

And success! The ticket has been cancelled. We didn't even have to appeal to POPLA, which was a bit unexpected.

No reason given other than all 'relevant mitigating circumstances' were considered.

This post has been edited by Enceladus: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 - 00:24
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Wed, 15 Jul 2020 - 07:10
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 56,198
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



Sounds like they know there is a PPO in place, and if they do then trying to invoke PoFA would be fraud...

If the Landowner dumped on the council by terminating at short notice I doubt they will be in a particular rush to rescind the PPO!


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Wed, 15 Jul 2020 - 08:11
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 41,505
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: Planet Earth
Member No.: 49,223



Was personal information accessed without reasonable cause?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Wed, 15 Jul 2020 - 08:24
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 56,198
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



I would say not, there is no requirement in KADOE for PoFA compliance or for PoFA to be able to be applied.

I don't think a court wold necessarily reject a contractual claim just because a PPO was in place either, so on that basis I think the PPC can argue reasonable cause t enable them to contact the keeper to try and elicit payment from the driver, in the same way they could pre 2012.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Umkomaas
post Wed, 15 Jul 2020 - 09:57
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,124
Joined: 8 Feb 2013
Member No.: 59,842



I suspect that Civil Restraint Order hanging over them is making them very nervous about falling foul of the courts by pursuing something the know they shouldn't.

For whatever reason, a good result for the OP.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Wed, 15 Jul 2020 - 10:16
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 41,505
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: Planet Earth
Member No.: 49,223



If there's a cage to rattle... But the right outcome.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 - 10:16


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 15:02
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here