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HELP! Redbridge Lane East - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited (camera enforcement)
KayZee
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 20:08
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Hello all

Ive been sent a PCN by Redbridge Council for entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. From memory, I did not block anyone's right of way and I was stationary for merely 5 seconds maybe less. I saw the road ahead (which is a major roundabout) and expected the first car to move off before the traffic from another set of lights began to flow. However it appears that driver hesitated for a few seconds and I ended up where I was. I did not judge correctly I guess and moved too quick, however I don't remember being in the box for too long. Maybe about 5 seconds or so...

Now, I have been sent two images on the PCN;

The first one is just a blackout image and all I can see is my front reg plate, nothing else is visible. The time stamp on this blacked out image is 18:39:15

The second one, shows about half of (what appears to be) my car within the box junction. The reg plate is not readable however I do recall being on that road around that time. The time stamp on this image is 18:39:22.

When I login to the council's website to try and find more evidence or clearer images/video, I don't find anything different. Also, the video does not play and my car is not visible in the still image of the video. The time stamp on the video is 18:39:05 however it does not play. It also shows it is a 00:00 min video which explains why it does not play I guess.

I have attached the PCN and images from the website. What are my options here? Ideally I wanted full evidence before I decided to pay the reduced penalty charge or at least be able to challenge it. Looking for any tips or pointers. TIA smile.gif

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v9lkzy00ujscd78/I...20811.jpeg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9y5vx7ixu5hbgil/S....22.16.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6u9gjameeko0scs/S....22.40.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i2uqy2kwztzcbjo/S....31.52.png?dl=0
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post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 20:08
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Incandescent
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 20:40
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No video = no evidence, however, there must be a video if they have managed to extract photos from it for the PCN. You need to contact council to ask what is going on. Only submit reps if you can view the video because although you say 5 seconds stopped, this is the top of any de minimis consideration, and if it was 10 seconds you're bang-to-rights.

You have some few days to get to see the video, and post it here, (hopefully). Until we see that video, it is really difficult to give meaningful advice.
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stamfordman
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 20:42
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you can pm me details and I'll see if I can get video.
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Incandescent
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 20:42
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Video is the sole evidence, so important to see it if you are considering an appeal.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 20:43
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KayZee
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 20:58
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 20:40) *
No video = no evidence, however, there must be a video if they have managed to extract photos from it for the PCN. You need to contact council to ask what is going on. Only submit reps if you can view the video because although you say 5 seconds stopped, this is the top of any de minimis consideration, and if it was 10 seconds you're bang-to-rights.

You have some few days to get to see the video, and post it here, (hopefully). Until we see that video, it is really difficult to give meaningful advice.



QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 20:42) *
Video is the sole evidence, so important to see it if you are considering an appeal.



So how do I go about asking for the video? Would emailing them be sufficient? I am not making a representation yet correct?
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Incandescent
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 21:23
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No you're not making reps yet, but if you can't see the video before the discount deadline, you can submit reps before that runs out on the basis "the offence did not occur", noting you had not been able to view the video, and see what they come back with. Normally the discount is re-offered if they reject.
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cp8759
post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 12:15
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It's worth noting that if the video isn't available, this can work in your favour. We've had a similar case that went to the tribunal, and the adjudicator couldn't view the evidence either, so he allowed the appeal due to lack of evidence.


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KayZee
post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 13:09
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 12:15) *
It's worth noting that if the video isn't available, this can work in your favour. We've had a similar case that went to the tribunal, and the adjudicator couldn't view the evidence either, so he allowed the appeal due to lack of evidence.


Hope this will be the case. Did you make rep under - offence did not occur or similar?

I am not able to get through to council to advise I cannot view video, as they say its all online won't entertain my call.
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stamfordman
post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 13:14
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I did offer to check for video.
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cp8759
post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 13:46
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QUOTE (KayZee @ Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 13:09) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 12:15) *
It's worth noting that if the video isn't available, this can work in your favour. We've had a similar case that went to the tribunal, and the adjudicator couldn't view the evidence either, so he allowed the appeal due to lack of evidence.


Hope this will be the case. Did you make rep under - offence did not occur or similar?

I am not able to get through to council to advise I cannot view video, as they say its all online won't entertain my call.

PM the details to me or stamfordman and we'll have a go.


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stamfordman
post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 17:53
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bang to rights on this one I'm afraid.


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Redivi
post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 18:28
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I agree

Can't see from that traffic why you thought that not only would the first car go but the two following would move up in time
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KayZee
post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 18:37
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 17:53) *
bang to rights on this one I'm afraid.





Ah! Misjudged it totally, being on a call didn't help either... just pay up I suppose sad.gif

QUOTE (Redivi @ Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 18:28) *
I agree

Can't see from that traffic why you thought that not only would the first car go but the two following would move up in time



Coz when I was approaching the box all that traffic hadn't started to flow. And the other traffic light had just gone red so if I was the first driver that gap of mini seconds would have been enough for me/one car to get through. Thats how that roundabout is at that time of day else you would wait forever as its constant traffic from two sets of lights so only option is to move when one goes red and before cars from other one come by...but then not all drivers are swift/quick so at the end of the day I misjudged it.


Btw can't read my reg on the video? sleep.gif


This post has been edited by KayZee: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 18:37
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cp8759
post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 19:51
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There is scope for a technical appeal, the wording on the PCN regarding the deadline to make representations, as well as the date when they may issue a charge certificate, are both wrong.


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KayZee
post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 19:58
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 19:51) *
There is scope for a technical appeal, the wording on the PCN regarding the deadline to make representations, as well as the date when they may issue a charge certificate, are both wrong.


Interesting, could you please expand? Whats wrong?

Do you need me to upload the back of the PCN? It has more details on making representations

This post has been edited by KayZee: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 19:58
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 20:07
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your PCn states that if you have not paid or made representations within the 28 day period (This begins on the date of the notice) then they disregard the representation and a charge certificate may be served.

The regulations allow that they may disregard representations made after 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice ,and the same with a CC.

service is two working days after date of posting so the time you are allowed is truncated by at least 2 days As per this case

2180378221

Upon the appellant appearing before me on 03-11-18 he making submissions in accordance with those set out in writing I reserved my decision to allow for full consideration of the issues raised.
Upon the appellant raising the point.
This PCN was issued on 23-08-18 and would I infer applying the normal rules of service be served on 25-08-18.
I calculate that the 28 day period from date of issue of the PCN for payment of the charge expired on 19-08-18 the council stating that a charge certificate may be served if no payment is made.
That I find effectively reduces the 28 day period from date of service of the PCN for the making of representations and I am accordingly satisfied that this PCN is not compliant with the legal requirements.
I make no finding as to any of the other issues raised by either party to the proceedings but enforcement may not for the reason given be pursued.




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cp8759
post Wed, 28 Nov 2018 - 13:31
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It would be beneficial to see the rest of the PCN, as the tribunal often says the document must be "read as a whole"


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KayZee
post Fri, 30 Nov 2018 - 00:11
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 28 Nov 2018 - 13:31) *
It would be beneficial to see the rest of the PCN, as the tribunal often says the document must be "read as a whole"


Here is the rear of the PCN...

https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=PCN+Ba...0_120714733.jpg
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cp8759
post Fri, 30 Nov 2018 - 10:19
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QUOTE (KayZee @ Fri, 30 Nov 2018 - 00:11) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 28 Nov 2018 - 13:31) *
It would be beneficial to see the rest of the PCN, as the tribunal often says the document must be "read as a whole"


Here is the rear of the PCN...

https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=PCN+Ba...0_120714733.jpg

Your link doesn't work, says I need to log in.


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KayZee
post Fri, 30 Nov 2018 - 19:42
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 30 Nov 2018 - 10:19) *
QUOTE (KayZee @ Fri, 30 Nov 2018 - 00:11) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 28 Nov 2018 - 13:31) *
It would be beneficial to see the rest of the PCN, as the tribunal often says the document must be "read as a whole"


Here is the rear of the PCN...

https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=PCN+Ba...0_120714733.jpg

Your link doesn't work, says I need to log in.



Sorry, have made it public now. Hope it works

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o52w7w97ho3h62l/P...714733.jpg?dl=0

This post has been edited by KayZee: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 - 19:43
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