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DVLA, ongoing fight with the B******S., What to do next?
StevieSpain
post Sun, 17 Mar 2019 - 16:54
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Hi all, I'll introduce myself first, if I may...
Name's Stevie, currently driving 7.5 for John Lewis in London.
Job's ok, wages are good.

And..on to my problem which someone may have an answer to smile.gif

I passed my Class 2 HGV back in 76, in the Army. Used it for about 10 years then moved on to other things, my medical lapsed.
Ended up in Spain for 13 years and came back a year ago, no work in Spain, all dried up.

Had a medical, did the CPC, got a tacho card, sent the relevant forms off to DVLA for the reinstatement of my Class 2 (now Cat C LGV) licence.
DVLA sent back a provisional Cat C. WTF?

After months of back and forth, and to cut a long story short,....
DVLA said they had no record of me passing the HGV 2 test back in 76 and it was up to me to prove it.
I did prove it with the help of Army records.
DVLA now accept that I passed my test in 76 and have the entitlement of LGV Cat C.

However, they still refuse to issue me a licence on the grounds that I failed to exchange the old style, cardboard booklet, licence for a new style plastic one in 86.

That just doesn't seem right to me, that "Failed to exchange the old style, cardboard booklet, licence for a new style plastic one in 86" should be a valid reason not to give me my licence back.

I was never informed that I had to, and by the same token was unaware of any consequences of not exchanging it.
I'm not banned from driving, and the TC hasn't suspended my Licence (which is clean btw).

Here's a brief outline of what I've done so far.
Been through the DVLA's in house complaints procedure.

Which allowed me to...
Contact my MP.
She contacted DVLA and got a reply from them. Yep, same as the one the DVLA sent me. No, I can't have it because I failed to exchange back in 86.

Which allows me to...
Get a form, yesterday, to send off to the Parliamentary Ombudsman. Will post that tomorrow.

Also...
Got a request for help in with a public access Barrister. No answer as yet.
Ad hoc, spur of the moment advice from a lawyer relative was that it looks very fishy, may be a misuse of powers by DVLA and to carry on fighting it.
I have spent hundreds of hours scouring t'internet for an answer, can't find out anything about this situation.

What I need to know is do the DVLA have the right to deny me my entitlement for the reason they stated?
Are there any lawyers that you can recommend I go to?

Thanks all.
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post Sun, 17 Mar 2019 - 16:54
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DancingDad
post Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 10:38
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This may be one where you need to ask DVLA exactly what legislation they are relying upon for their decision.
Otherwise you could get old hunting for one regulation or part of an act that relates.
A quick check on Legislation.guv.uk gave 12 pages of results for Driving Licence Regulations.
Not to mention the enabling act which is (I believe) Road Traffic Act 1988.
It may be S97 which seems to include a requirement to surrender old style licences ??
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/97
I can only point you to S100 otherwise... Appeals.
But without information on what rule you are fighting that would be a forlorn hope.
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StevieSpain
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 09:14
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 10:38) *
This may be one where you need to ask DVLA exactly what legislation they are relying upon for their decision.
Otherwise you could get old hunting for one regulation or part of an act that relates.
A quick check on Legislation.guv.uk gave 12 pages of results for Driving Licence Regulations.
Not to mention the enabling act which is (I believe) Road Traffic Act 1988.
It may be S97 which seems to include a requirement to surrender old style licences ??
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/97
I can only point you to S100 otherwise... Appeals.
But without information on what rule you are fighting that would be a forlorn hope.

Ahh, yes, didn't think of that. I''ll get on it right away.
Thanks smile.gif
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DancingDad
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 09:32
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If it is S97 there is a caveat on the surrender "or provides the Secretary of State with an explanation for not surrendering them which the Secretary of State considers adequate"
This puts the decision firmly in the hands of the DVLA (acting for the SOS) but with an arguable term "adequate"

I assume at the moment you have simply said that you cannot return the old licence as it has been lost in the course of travels, house moves etc over the years.
Personally I would find that adequate considering that DVLA have systems in place to deal with lost licences and the like but if it comes to an appeal on it, you would need to show that their decision was unreasonable, one that no reasonable authority could be expected to make.

I wonder if the people who have been looking at it and your arguments have been towards they must issue a new one against you must surrender the old and the adequate explanation part has been lost or ignored.
By them as much as you.
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StevieSpain
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 10:09
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S97..
"F6[©surrenders to the Secretary of State—
(i)any previous licence granted to him after 1st January 1976 F7...,"
If I was being refused using that clause then anyone who had lost/misplaced a licence would also be denied, I think.

Section 100 is interesting. I basically says that I CAN appeal by applying to be heard in a Magistrates Court. And that is the way I'm heading, I think.
Just filling in a Complaint to the Parliamentary Ombudsman atm.
To get to this point I've had to..
Use the DVLA official complaints route. Done and denied.
Which allowed me to contact my MP. Same.
Only now can I make this application to be reviewed by the Parliamentary Ombudsman.

So, I'll get this sent off tonight and await the results in a couple of months. It goes to my MP first, to be signed by her, then forwarded on. smile.gif


QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 09:32) *
If it is S97 there is a caveat on the surrender "or provides the Secretary of State with an explanation for not surrendering them which the Secretary of State considers adequate"
This puts the decision firmly in the hands of the DVLA (acting for the SOS) but with an arguable term "adequate"

I assume at the moment you have simply said that you cannot return the old licence as it has been lost in the course of travels, house moves etc over the years.
Personally I would find that adequate considering that DVLA have systems in place to deal with lost licences and the like but if it comes to an appeal on it, you would need to show that their decision was unreasonable, one that no reasonable authority could be expected to make.

I wonder if the people who have been looking at it and your arguments have been towards they must issue a new one against you must surrender the old and the adequate explanation part has been lost or ignored.
By them as much as you.

Ha, posted at the same time. Yes, you're thinking the same way as me. Lost licence is a lost licence is a lost licence. The fact that I cannot produce an old one is, in my eyes, immaterial and NOT and adequate reason to not grant me a re-issue of my entitlement.

Thanks for your interest and legwork smile.gif

Just want to add, the reason they are giving as an excuse not to issue my licence is that I failed to exchange the old style cardboard booklet thing for a new style plastic licence back in 86.
A lawyer relative says that this is unreasonable as A: I wasn't informed I HAD to, and B: I wasn't informed of any consequences i.e you won't be able to get a new one in the future.
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DancingDad
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 10:48
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IMO, finding out exactly what they are relying on is critical.
No point in raising an appeal on S97 "adequate" and whether their decision is reasonable when there may be a regulation tucked away that says "though shalt exchange or else"

And keep in mind that often decision makers in authorities base the decision on policy not law (even though policy should be based on law)
Getting a copy of that written policy could pay dividends (Freedom of Information request)
If there is no written policy then they are on the back foot on showing reasonable decision.
If there is a written policy it may well give ideas on why they are refusing and how to overcome.

I'd also be wary of the solicitor's comment.
For all I know or you, there may have been full page headlines in all the national papers, letters to all affected licence holders and/'or companies who would be employing drivers.
Not to say it may not be valid but it is not a silver bullet.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 10:49
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 11:49
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I think you should be looking at s110 to 117.


Member roythebus might be helpful with this try a PM to him


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StevieSpain
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 11:57
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I see your point, DancingDad. I'll bear that in mind. Thanks
.

PASTMYBEST, ok, will have a read through those and check up on Roy. Thanks very much to both of you. I'll let you know whappen smile.gif
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StevieSpain
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 12:07
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 11:49) *
I think you should be looking at s110 to 117.

These deal with the Secretary of State, Traffic Commissioner, revocation and suspension of licences.?.
Mine has never been suspended, not revoked, it is (as of now, anyway) clean, no points.

Am I missing something?
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 14:07
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QUOTE (StevieSpain @ Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 12:07) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 11:49) *
I think you should be looking at s110 to 117.

These deal with the Secretary of State, Traffic Commissioner, revocation and suspension of licences.?.
Mine has never been suspended, not revoked, it is (as of now, anyway) clean, no points.

Am I missing something?


110

(1)
Licences under Part III of this Act to drive motor vehicles of classes which include large goods vehicles or passenger-carrying vehicles or large goods vehicles or passenger-carrying vehicles of any class shall be granted by the Secretary of State in accordance with this Part of this Act and shall, in so far as they authorise the driving of large goods vehicles or passenger-carrying vehicles, be otherwise subject to this Part of this Act in addition to Part III of this Act.


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