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Euro car park PCN - should I appeal, pay or ignore
cnw
post Fri, 10 Jun 2016 - 11:19
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Hi

A driver received a PCN from Euro car parks (IN ENGLAND) for over staying 23 mins on a 1 hour parking ticket. Totally the driver's fault as they didn't realise the time, but they were helping a friend who thought she was on the verge of having a migraine, so they wanted to stay with her to make sure she was ok. Also, in their defence, they use that car park a lot, and very often pay for much more time than they actually use. They've never overstayed before. ECP say that there are notices there. There probably are, but the driver didn't notice them.

The fine is for £85, or reduced to £50 if paid within 14 days.

I've spent time googling but am confused. Some people say ignore it and it'll go away, others say it gets more and more aggressive if you ignore it.

What to do? Is it worth the risk of ignoring or will that end up with months of stress and a court appearance?

This post has been edited by cnw: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 - 16:47
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post Fri, 10 Jun 2016 - 11:19
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dandyman
post Fri, 10 Jun 2016 - 11:23
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Firstly, England or Scotland?

Secondly, be reassured that Euro are exceptionally toothless.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 10 Jun 2016 - 11:46
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Thirdly, edit your first post. State "the driver" overstayed... - no me, him, her, I, etc smile.gif

ECP are hopeless, havent tried court for a long time. They got utterly spanked.

They dont comply with POFA2012, meaning they cannot hold the keeper liable. Have a search in the first few threads here
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cnw
post Fri, 10 Jun 2016 - 16:51
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Thanks for your help! But I found this online "POFA 2012 allows Euro Car Parks and other parking companies to pursue the registered keeper of vehicles for unpaid parking fines."

This post has been edited by cnw: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 - 16:52
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Skiddaw
post Fri, 10 Jun 2016 - 17:18
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What post #3 is saying is that the NTK documentation sent to you by Euro has to comply with the terminology in POFA 2012 in order for them to claim keeper liability, IN EVERY RESPECT.

Search some other Euro threads and you get a gist of what is meant.
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ostell
post Fri, 10 Jun 2016 - 17:24
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And here's the link to POFA regulations

You will be interested in paragraph 8 if there was a windscreen ticket and paragraph 9 if there was not. Everything you see in the relevant paragraphs has to be in the Notice to Keeper in the same general form that the legislation states.

The usual ones are that there is no creditor named, there is no period of parking, ie the period of time the car was parked and not the time between the ANPR cameras. There is probably more.

And also the time they took to get the NTK to you (not the time they sent it). 14 days if no windscreen ticket, between 28 & 56 days if there was. Outside that time and they've blown it. May not even by relying on POFA at all.

This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 - 17:26
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cnw
post Fri, 10 Jun 2016 - 17:41
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comment removed

This post has been edited by cnw: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 - 10:13
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Dennis Basher
post Fri, 10 Jun 2016 - 17:50
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ECP could only know who the driver was if somebody had told them.

If this letter is their first correspondence, it will have been sent as a Notice to Keeper (i.e. to the person whom the DVLA records as being the vehicle's registered keeper). You have no obligation to tell them who was driving and it's in your interests not to - ECP's non-compliance with POFA is a sure-fire way for the vehicle's keeper (i.e. you) to get the charge cancelled.

This post has been edited by Dennis Basher: Sat, 11 Jun 2016 - 09:19
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cnw
post Fri, 10 Jun 2016 - 17:53
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PARKING CHARGE NOTICE AMOUNT DUE: £85
PAYMENT FOR THE PARKING CHARGE NOTICE IS DUE WITHIN 28 DAYS FROM THE 06/06/16 SHOWN ABOVE
IF THE PARKING CHARGE NOTICE IS PAID WITHIN 14 DAYS FROM THE DATE OF THIS NOTICE A PROMPT PAYMENT DISCOUNTED AMOUNT OF £50 IS PAYABLE

Location: xxxx

On 27/05/16 you were the registered keeper of the vehicle: xxxx
Or you have been named by the registered keeper as the driver/hirer when there was a breach of terms and conditions of parking.

[2 photos of numberplate with entry and exit date and times]

We are using cameras to capture images of vehicles entering and leaving the car park and calculate their length of stay. Signage on the car park clearly informs of the terms and conditions.

The parking charge notice xxx has been issued because the vehicle was parked at xxxx. As the P&D/permit purchased did not cover the date and time of parking this was in breach of the terms and conditions at this site.

If, after 28 days beginning with the day after that on which this notice is given, the Parking Charge Notice has not been paid in full, and we have not been made aware of the name and a current address for service of the driver, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("the Act"), we do have the right, subject to the requirements of the Act, to recoer from the keeper of the vehicle at the time it was parked so much of that amount that remains unpaid. Failure to pay the outstanding balance or provide a serviceable address for the driver may result in you incurring additional charges from civil action being taken against you.

If you are a vehicle-hire firm and the vehicle was hired out at the time the parking took place, please also let us know and provide us with a copy of the hire agreement and a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement. Please note that we may have a right to recover unpaid parking charges from you.

And then there's loads of blurb under the headings:
  • How did you obtain my name and address?
  • Why have I received a parking charge notice?
  • How do I appeal? (This mentions POPLA after an unsuccesful appeal)
  • How do I register a complaint?

[/list]

And then the payment options.

That's about it. Does that seem all above board and legit, or can I ignore the PCN?

BTW it was a letter through the post, there was nothing on the windscreen. And the driver is NOT named in the letter. The letter is addressed to the keeper. smile.gif

This post has been edited by cnw: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 - 17:53
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Dennis Basher
post Fri, 10 Jun 2016 - 18:07
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QUOTE (cnw @ Fri, 10 Jun 2016 - 18:53) *
And the driver is NOT named in the letter. The letter is addressed to the keeper. smile.gif

You're getting the hang of this now smile.gif


As per Dandyman's question in Post #2 - if this incident took place in England or Wales you should not ignore. There is a two stage process to getting this charge cancelled.

The first stage is to go through the motions of "appealing" to Euro Car Parks. In turn, they will go through the motions of considering your appeal before rejecting it. At that point they should provide you with a POPLA Code which will allow you to go to the second stage (i.e. an appeal to POPLA).

Here's a suggested first stage appeal to Euro Car Parks:

Dear Sir,

Parking Charge Notice [0123456789]: Vehicle Registration [AA11ABC]
Formal Dispute


I refer to the above-detailed Parking Charge Notice (“PCN”) issued to me by Euro Car Parks Ltd (“ECP”) as a Notice to Keeper. I confirm that I am the keeper of this vehicle for the purpose of the corresponding definition under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”) and I write to formally dispute the validity of this PCN.

You will no doubt be familiar with the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of POFA to be followed in order for a parking operator to be able to claim unpaid parking charges from a vehicle’s keeper. There are a number of reasons why ECP’s Notice to Keeper did not comply with POFA; in order to understand why, I suggest that you carefully study the details of Schedule 4, Paragraph 9 in particular.

Given that ECP has forfeited its right to claim unpaid parking charges from the vehicle’s keeper, please confirm that you shall now cancel this charge. Alternatively, should you still believe that you have a valid claim, please provide me with details of the Independent Appeals Service (POPLA), their contact details and a unique POPLA appeal reference so that I may escalate my dispute to POPLA.

Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving your full response within the relevant timescales specified under the British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice.


Yours faithfully,



Euro Car Parks have the facility to submit appeals online.
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cnw
post Fri, 10 Jun 2016 - 20:15
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You guys are awesome smile.gif

Thank you so much. Any advice on timescales to appeal? Straight away or leave it til the last minute?

Thanks
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cnw
post Fri, 10 Jun 2016 - 23:13
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Found this too. Should I be asking all these questions?



Dear {name of IPC member, only IPC members for this version!!!}

Re PCN number:

I am not ignoring your charge for a purported parking infraction. As this is purely a charge, issued under an alleged contract and the driver has not been identified, I require the following information so that I can make an informed decision:

1. Who is the party that contracted with your company? I require their contact details.
2. What is the full legal identity of the landowner?
3. As you are not the landowner please provide a contemporaneous and unredacted copy of your contract with the landholder that demonstrate that you have their authority.
4. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.
5. If the charge is based on damages for breach of contract please provide your justification of this sum.
6. Is your charge based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking? Answer yes or no.
7. If the charge is based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking please provide a valid VAT invoice for this 'service'.
8. Please provide a copy of the signs that you can evidence were on site and which you contend formed a contract with the driver on that occasion, as well as all photographs taken of this vehicle.

If you believe you have a cause of action, send a Letter before Claim within the next 21 days and I will take advice and will respond.

However, in my opinion, there is a better alternative than legal proceedings, namely that we utilise the services of a completely independent ADR service suited to parking charges. This does not include the IAS appeal service - which lacks any transparency and possibly any independence from the IPC - unlike the alternative offered by the British Parking Association, POPLA, which is transparent and has been shown to be independent.

Do not send debt collector letters and do not add any costs or surcharges. I will not respond to such contact and to involve another firm would be a failure to mitigate your costs which are not my liability because the POFA 2012 can only potentially hold a registered keeper liable if certain provisions have been met and even then, the 'amount of the parking charge' is the only amount pursuable.

Yours faithfully,
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Dennis Basher
post Fri, 10 Jun 2016 - 23:26
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Nope - that's a template for use with the parking companies in the IPC. POPLA is not available with those operators - instead, they offer a kangaroo court-style so-called "Independent" Appeals Service.

Euro Car Parks are members of the BPA and offer the more acceptable POPLA independent appeals service. At this stage you're just after a POPLA Code from ECP, so something short and sweet will do as an initial appeal to ECP.

This post has been edited by Dennis Basher: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 - 23:27
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dandyman
post Sat, 11 Jun 2016 - 06:10
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For the last time of asking, England/Wales, or Scotland/NI?
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Dennis Basher
post Sat, 11 Jun 2016 - 08:19
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The OP's edited their first post - it's England
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ostell
post Sat, 11 Jun 2016 - 09:10
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CNW In post #7 remove the second paragraph.

The letter in post #10 should be more than sufficient at this stage.

Then come back when you have a POPLA code.
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cnw
post Sat, 11 Jun 2016 - 10:14
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Thanks for all your help. Will send off the letter from post #10. Any suggestions on when? I read somewhere to wait 3 weeks. ???
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Dennis Basher
post Sat, 11 Jun 2016 - 10:46
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Given that this Notice to Keeper was based on ANPR camera evidence rather than a windscreen ticket being issued on the day, the relevant period under POFA for ECP to deliver a compliant Notice to Keeper covered the 14 days from 28/5/16 (i.e. the day after the parking "event") to 10/6/16. It's now too late for ECP to reissue a compliant Notice to Keeper and so there's no need for you to wait.

If you submit you appeal online and are prompted to declare your status, make sure you select the "I am the Registered Keeper" option, not "I am the Driver".

If you are planning on posting your appeal, post it First Class at the Post Office and make sure you get a free receipt of posting.
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cnw
post Sun, 12 Jun 2016 - 13:08
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Hello again

Filling out the online form. What is the parking charge date. Is that the date of issue, or the letter date? Thanks smile.gif
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ostell
post Sun, 12 Jun 2016 - 16:44
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That sounds like the date that you committed the dastardly act.
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