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Counting days from Rejection Notice
44eldred
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 12:05
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Can I still challenge this or have a run out of time? If I go to the council's website it still offers me the option of paying £130.

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post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 12:05
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 12:23
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You have until tomorrow to make representations.

If nothing else re word this a bit to suit. It is thr reasoning of an adjudicator allowing an appeal re the signs and regulations


The Enforcement Authority state that they have a valid Traffic Management Order to enforce this restriction and that it is clearly signed in accordance with the relevant legislation. They then refer to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002.
Section 36 of the 2003 Act provides in subsection (5) that, subject to subsection (6) below, for the purposes of this section, a penalty charge is payable with respect to a motor vehicle by the owner of the vehicle if the person driving or propelling the vehicle
(a) acts in contravention of a prescribed order; or
(b) fails to comply with an indication given by a scheduled section 36 traffic sign.
Subsection (6) provides that no penalty charge shall be payable under subsection (5)(a) above where
(a) the person acting in contravention of the prescribed order also fails to comply with an indication given by a scheduled section 36 traffic sign; or
(b) the contravention of the prescribed order would also give rise to a liability to pay a penalty charge under section 77 of the Road Traffic Act 1991.
There is no dispute that the sign at this location is a scheduled section 36 traffic sign, as specified in Schedule 3 to the 2003 Act, even though the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 have been superseded by the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016.
This Penalty Charge Notice does not allege that the vehicle failed to comply with a sign indicating a route restricted to certain vehicles.
Considering all the evidence before me carefully the application for review is successful and the appeal must be allowed.


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44eldred
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 13:37
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Thanks. I've just submitted a reply asking them to waive it as a van clearly starting moving into my lane on the video and there was no way for me to avoid driving down the lane without colliding with the van. Also mentioned the lack of signage leading up to the bus lane - you can only see it when you've actually turned to drive down there. Fingers crossed!
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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 16:49
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OP---I hope you submitted PMB's draft --it's persuasive.

I don't think the PCN is relevant without photos because there are two bus gates in the stretch noted. Does it say in which direction you were travelling or do you have to work it out for yourself?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3690695,-...6384!8i8192

Mick


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44eldred
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 17:59
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I didn't because I didn't really understand it but I'm happy to add it to an appeal when they reject this one. I did use some wording from another allowed appeal I found on the London Tribunals site.

That's the right junction you linked to, I was turning left

I can upload photos later
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44eldred
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 16:58
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Hi, I have a driving in a route restricted to buses and cycles PCN from RBKUT. I appealed and received a notice of rejection dated 20th December.

I submitted my appeal to to the tribunals service on 17th January.

I was told on the tribunals website that my appeal was out of date. I have also just received a charge certificate.

The letter of rejection says that I have 28 days from the 'date of service of this letter' to appeal. Given the 20th Dec was a Thursday, adding two days for post makes service the 24th Dec. (Also this is probably Royal Mail's busiest day of the year so likely received later - I can't verify when it was received as I was away).

So earliest it was served is 24th Dec.

I make the 17th January the 24th day after service, and therefore within the time limit.

I explained this in my tribunal appeal before going on to my reasons for appealing.

Am I getting this wrong or are they?
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cp8759
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 17:28
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Show us the notice of rejection.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Guest_Newname_*
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 17:30
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Which council?

You'd count from the 20th December so submitting on the 17th of January takes it beyond 28 days.

Doesn't seem unreasonable though to argue receipt of the notice although sent on the 20th December would have been delayed by Christmas post and bank holidays at that time of year.
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cp8759
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 17:35
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QUOTE (Newname @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 17:30) *
You'd count from the 20th December so submitting on the 17th of January takes it beyond 28 days.

Please don't post such assertions without having at least some vague idea of whether they're accurate or not. The 28 day period starts from the date of service, not the date the rejection is issued.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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mdann52
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 18:05
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I suppose there is a possibility it was posted on the 18th with the 20th printed on there as the (legal) date of service - do you still have the envelope with any postmark or similar, or are there any other addresses on the NoR? (Knowing councils this is not beyond the realms of possibility...) Otherwise the council may be able to shine some light on when it was actually sent.
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Neil B
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 18:12
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Hi, I have a driving in a route restricted to buses and cycles PCN from RBKUT. I appealed and received a notice of rejection dated 20th December.
Deadline was 2oth Jan
QUOTE (44eldred @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 16:58) *
I submitted my appeal to to the tribunals service on 17th January.

I know you mentioned website but did you submit online?

This post has been edited by Neil B: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 18:13


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Guest_Newname_*
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 18:20
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Fao cp8795

There doesn't seem to be another way to account for the poster being told they were out of time. 20th December to 17th January = 29 days
Date of service is otherwise an imponderable.

The poster can still argue postal delays due to the time of the year. I've been in similar position and done the same

This post has been edited by Newname: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 18:29
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Neil B
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 18:25
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QUOTE (Newname @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 18:20) *
Fao cp8795

They doesn't seem to be any other way to account for the poster being told they were out of time then to take 20th of December as the

I have an inkling he knows what he's talking about, whereas ----


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Fredd
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 18:27
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Is this the same case?


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Guest_Newname_*
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 18:42
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Fao Neil

Only answering from having had a similar experience, and logic ie 20th December plus 17th January = 29 days

I should have included "it's possible that 20th December is viewed as the date of service"

But anyway whatever, hope that the poster is successful in their appeal

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44eldred
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 18:51
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 18:27) *
Is this the same case?


Yes that’s me, this is the next stage though.

Yes I submitted the form online to the tribunal service. Council is Kingston (RBKUT)

How can date of service be the same day as the day on the letter? I can’t find anything relating to PCN appeals, but elsewhere in the court system a letter is deemed served two working days after posting. If it’s the date of the letter then surely the notice of rejection would just say “date of this letter” instead of “date of service of this letter”?

Even without the seasonal posting delays, I believe it should be within the limit.

I suppose we will find out soon enough!






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Neil B
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 18:55
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QUOTE (44eldred @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 18:51) *
I suppose we will find out soon enough!

No, ring them tomorrow.

and post the rejection !
RBKUT are flawed in their description of the very period you're talking about; hence your flawed counting, in the same way.
17th was day 25, not 24.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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44eldred
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 19:02
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Hopefully attached
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southpaw82
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 19:05
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QUOTE (44eldred @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 18:51) *
QUOTE (Fredd @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 18:27) *
Is this the same case?


Yes that’s me, this is the next stage though.



One case, one thread.


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44eldred
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 19:08
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[/quote]
One case, one thread.
[/quote]

Sorry, any idea how to merge please?

Edit: thanks for merging mods :-)

This post has been edited by 44eldred: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 19:09
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