Charge Certificate received almost 2 years after contravention!, This is from a PCN from Ealing Council that happened in 2018! |
Charge Certificate received almost 2 years after contravention!, This is from a PCN from Ealing Council that happened in 2018! |
Wed, 5 Aug 2020 - 02:40
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 48 Joined: 5 Aug 2020 Member No.: 109,328 |
Hey good folks!
So to my astonishment I just received a Charge Certificate dated 03/08/2020 from a PCN that was dated / from a contravention issued in 24/10/2018! Now this is it where it gets a bit weird. So I received the initial PCN letter for it in 2018 (the one where it says you have 2 weeks to pay for discount, appeal process etc) and from this I had emailed asking for evidence. I never heard back so thought nothing of it UNTIL I emailed the council as I needed evidence / proof of address for a bank application stating a lived at that address / or asked them to send proof that I had a permit (something to that effect). Instead of sending me that, they finally sent me the evidence of the contravention video in the same thread! This was 4+ months after the PCN was issues. HOW this happened I will never know - but it's ridiculous either way (typical councils being useless). Also what if I never asked for this proof of address / chased this email up? Besides the point, I questioned this but again heard nothing of it and eventually received my council letter that I had initially requested. Now fast forward roughly 2 years and I'm hit with a Charge Certificate! No further letters apart from the initial one I got, and ~a few email exchanges. Is this even legal? How does this work with the timeframe? Why is it so late? So many unanswered questions and I'm hoping that a. this can just get cancelled based on time b. if it doesn't, do I still have the right to appeal / let me go to the adjudicator based on how poor they were with replying on time and it was so long before they let me see video evidence (well past the 2 weeks discount period / 1 month).. It was for a prohibited no right turn. I've got some-what ok evidence to back my case as I genuinely missed it and live in the area... signage not been properly lit as it was at night, too small, no advanced warning, literally only one no-right turn sign etc (but is it too late to appeal this) - but again I'd rather have this done and dusted just based on the time it took for them to send me this. Any help would be much appreciated - thank you! 🙏 |
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Wed, 5 Aug 2020 - 02:40
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Fri, 7 Aug 2020 - 17:38
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#21
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,063 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
My view is the LAO can get involved where the complainant wasn't able to avail themselves of the usual recourse procedures (as in this case). IMO, not at all. The OP was obliged to make reps and apparently didn't. How many times have we cautioned OPs against requesting a video/TMO etc. and then sitting on their hands. In any event, the procedure has not been exhausted. You can wrap their responses whichever way you like, but the OP erred. IMO, all my draft does is to open a line which otherwise remains closed. There is nothing to be lost because if the authority do not respond positively then the OP can still decide whether to submit a SD - they have not surrendered any ground on this point because if they decide to submit a SD then the arbiter on this point is the adjudicator, not the authority. And if the adj were to refuse then there's always MMV's option after all other statutory routes have been exhausted. |
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Sun, 9 Aug 2020 - 11:19
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#22
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Member Group: Members Posts: 48 Joined: 5 Aug 2020 Member No.: 109,328 |
Thanks for the reply
1. At what point can / should I get the LAO involved? 2. What exactly is a Statutory Declaration and what am I hoping to achieve from it - will I fill one after (presumably) after the fine gets registered with NCC. 3. What does MMV stand for? |
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Sun, 9 Aug 2020 - 11:50
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#23
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
future for your information.
A charge certificate is a demand for an enhanced penalty because you did not make representations or pay it is issued after the date by which it is to late to make representations or to pay the penalty. before the council can enforce it they must apply to the Traffic Enforcement Centre who will register the amount as a civil debt ( no CCJ can be recorded) but the council will be required to serve on you a document called an order for recovery. With this will be a form that allows you to make a statutory declaration. This statutory declaration allows you to swear to the court that You did not receive the PCN You made representations to the council but did not receive a response or You appealed to an adjudicator but did not receive a decision. This is tick box and you may only tick one box. To knowingly make a false statement is a criminal offence with potentially an unlimited fine and possibly prison. You have two choices make a declaration or pay If you pay then as MMV ( a regular poster with a lot of knowledge in these matters) you could engage with the councils complaints procedure and ultimately the LAO (ocal authority ombudsman ) re the councils poor following of procedure that was at least partly responsible for you being in this position What you do is your choice -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sun, 9 Aug 2020 - 13:12
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#24
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Member Group: Members Posts: 48 Joined: 5 Aug 2020 Member No.: 109,328 |
Thanks for that - cleared thay up nicely!
Essentially may hands are tied until I pay, only THEN I have those options? I’m presuming asking them to cancel the PCN and the council essentially stating they can see no reason why to - means I guess I can’t state I made a representation (albeit informal) and the council made no response. So can’t go down the SD route presumably, but too much of a grey area and don’t want to dig myself deeper into the hole I’m in.. What do others think? Also I’m guessing a CCJ will be issued if you then chose not to pay after X amount of time? And surely I can appeal to the court before paying as normal right? Even with no SD made? This post has been edited by thefuture: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 - 13:16 |
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Sun, 9 Aug 2020 - 13:25
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#25
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Thanks for that - cleared thay up nicely! Essentially may hands are tied until I pay, only THEN I have those options? I’m presuming asking them to cancel the PCN and the council essentially stating they can see no reason why to - means I guess I can’t state I made a representation (albeit informal) and the council made no response. So can’t go down the SD route presumably, but too much of a grey area and don’t want to dig myself deeper into the hole I’m in.. What do others think? Also I’m guessing a CCJ will be issued if you then chose not to pay after X amount of time? And surely I can appeal to the court before paying as normal right? Even with no SD made? You do not get a CCJ for this type of penalty in any circumstances -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sun, 9 Aug 2020 - 13:29
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#26
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,268 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
Essentially may hands are tied until I pay, only THEN I have those options? I’m presuming asking them to cancel the PCN and the council essentially stating they can see no reason why to - means I’m going to have no choice but tick the received the PCN option (though my response was informal and so was the council’s). Also I’m guessing a CCJ will be issued if you then chose not to pay? And surely I can appeal to the court before paying as normal right? Even after the SD, and staying I got the PCN? No, you're not getting it at all. And I'm going to back pedal anyway. He already said there is no CCJ involved Saying you received the PCN is not one the options PMB mentioned. I can see a problem if you select the option 'made reps and received no reply' The tribunal introduced a new blanket direction for councils to follow in such cases. Ealing would then be required to ask you for a copy of representations you sent. When you don't respond, because you can't, a tribunal adjudicator would probably immediately rule against you rather than set a hearing. I can't imagine how you can get around that to make your case that Ealing have cocked up somewhere. It does look like you'll have to pay unless anyone else has a suggestion. -------------------- |
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Sun, 9 Aug 2020 - 18:03
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#27
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,063 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
The OP posted: So unfortunately it’s already been sent off at this point If they would like to show us what has been sent that would be useful. If as I drafted, then the OP waits for a response. |
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Sun, 9 Aug 2020 - 18:27
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#28
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Member Group: Members Posts: 719 Joined: 19 Dec 2017 Member No.: 95,615 |
The last of the OP's pictures (which, if presented chronologically is about 3 months after the alleged offence) says the OP can still make a representation, and sets no timescale for doing so. Could this mistake be leveraged into a win, or would this be too much of a stretch?
What if OP appeals now using HCA's template (which they may have done it's that' the meaning of 'it'), and then immediately makes a statutory declaration that they did so but did not receive a reply. The council will of course reject the representation, but the route to putting the whole mess before an adjudicator would be open. The adjudicator would likely find both the OP and the Council have ignored the proper timescales, at which point the OP shows the picture and says 'they misled me, by telling me I could make representations 3 months late, with no end date', which would tip the ruling in the OP's favour. This post has been edited by Longtime Lurker: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 - 18:28 |
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Sun, 9 Aug 2020 - 18:57
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#29
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Member Group: Members Posts: 48 Joined: 5 Aug 2020 Member No.: 109,328 |
Now it gets interesting! In all honesty I’m happy to make a SD if it’s what you guys recommend - and in all fairness I’m not deliberately providing false information, it’s in good faith because the option I’ll select is some-what open to some interpretation and if there’s any issues I can provide my full reasoning.
So here’s the email I sent - it was pretty much identical to the draft. I’m also going to try contact them by phone but I’m sure it’s a voicemail only / callback service. Believe it or not last time I got a ticket from Westminster council - I called up their general nimber regarding parking and they cancelled it while I was on the phone on the grounds the app I used was faulty and didn’t register on the CEO’s device. No representation or appeal, nothing! Tbf it was clear cut, but that’s something I can never see Ealing council do! |
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Sun, 9 Aug 2020 - 20:59
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#30
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,268 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
I’m happy to make a SD if it’s what you guys recommend You are just not getting this are you. No one here can recommend such a thing in the circumstances you've described. There was an original suggestion of it as a possibility and I initially supported that possibility, which I've since retracted but I don't have a 100% firm view. It's an application to a court of law and subject to perjury laws as someone has described. In advising, we are subject to that law too. That's why > What you do is your choice So if you think you honestly believe you made some sort of representations but were then, possibly, misled by Ealing responses, then that's you answer. I've more recently warned that you'll have to subsequently persuade the tribunal that was the case and it will take very careful wording to do so. We know it's difficult to assimilate so much info so quickly but I did post a link to the process and I'm not sure you read it? I also posted this > There's another, undated, message, possibly a response from complaints, which confirms initial correspondence was received 8th November. I concede that it does then tell him to make reps to parkingrep. I'm sorry I didn't make it clear but that was a question; when and from who? -------------------- |
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Sun, 9 Aug 2020 - 22:50
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#31
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Member Group: Members Posts: 48 Joined: 5 Aug 2020 Member No.: 109,328 |
Probably not but I'm learning quickly! Really do appreciate all your help so far guiding me through it - you really are doing God's work here and refreshing to see such people exist.
If you are referring to the link you sent of https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/unde...rcement-process I gave it a read - that's why I was previously asking at what step we can make use of the LAO? That's the bit I'm most confused with (i.e would you still pay, and THEN refer the case to the LAO, where they can then make recommendations to the council etc - or have I got that wrong completely) So I've attached the missing bit of the email below (and to answer you question it's from Complaints Parking email and dated 22 Jan 2019) EDIT Just wanted to touch up on my starting post QUOTE PS the Ealing online appeal section for a PCN still has an option for me to send my appeal, but don’t think that’ll be accepted anyway. Shall I send my appeal via email, explaining what has happened - or hold off for now? Should I give this ago? Rather frustratingly I had actually drafted a rep in my email 2 years back, but I didn't want to sent it off thinking the Council would just reject it and didn't want to have deal with going to the adjudicator again (though successful on previous occasion), and the fact this had already been delayed by months it was already 'dismissed / forgotten.' Thinking now, it was very silly of me not to but these are lessons well learned, and my draft I think was put together rather well. Essentially I was arguing it on the grounds of the contravention not occurring, due to v. poor signage (and using an example case further up on the same road where there is also a similar prohibited turn where the signage is very clear). This post has been edited by thefuture: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 - 23:04 |
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Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 09:05
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#32
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,063 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
From the Local Government and Social Care Ombudsman website:
What we cannot investigate The law does not allow us to investigate some issues. We cannot usually look at a complaint if: you have left it more than 12 months since knowing about the problem the matter has not affected you personally or caused you an injustice the issue affects most people in the council's area you have, or had, a right to appeal or take legal action and we think it is reasonable for you to have done so. This might be to: a tribunal (such as the Housing Benefit Appeals Service) I cannot see anything in your account which would create an exception to the above, so IMO forget it. What, when and how did you send to the council recently? As matters stand there is nothing for you to do except wait, either for their reply or the OfR |
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Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 12:47
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#33
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Member Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 25 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,319 |
...You made representations to the council but did not receive a response or... Not just any 'representations' though. You missed out the bit about these being "representations under regulation 4 of the Representations and Appeals regulations". This post has been edited by spaceman: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 12:48 |
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Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 14:24
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#34
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,063 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
I think you'll find it's reps under para. 1 to Schedule 1 to the LLA Act and that it is implicit, even when printed in WS/SD and on ETA's website: Statutory Declaration Where an Order for Recovery has been made, liability for the penalty can then only be challenged in the following circumstances: You did not receive the Penalty Charge Notice in question; or You made representations to the Enforcement Authority concerned but did not receive a Notice of Rejection from that authority; |
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Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 15:04
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#35
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Member Group: Members Posts: 898 Joined: 8 Aug 2006 Member No.: 7,035 |
As you made the appeal through the online portal, presumably you went through the Make A Representation menu to send it to them? If so then I don't see why you can't make an SD. You genuinely did make a representation as per the website. That the content wasn't any good seems irrelevant, they should still respond.
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Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 19:00
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#36
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
...You made representations to the council but did not receive a response or... Not just any 'representations' though. You missed out the bit about these being "representations under regulation 4 of the Representations and Appeals regulations". I think i was giving the Op an overview of the situation he is in not a legal text. Think it worked -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 21:12
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#37
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Member Group: Members Posts: 48 Joined: 5 Aug 2020 Member No.: 109,328 |
Sorry to clear things up - I never made a rep online / on their website.
I only used the online portal to try and view the video, and when I requested it on the website - it still wouldn't work online after a couple days, and that's when I send the email off. Again, I guess you could argue during our email exchange with complaints where am in clear disagreement and where I asked them to cancel it, and no formal rejections after from them stating the rep has to be sent to the other email. This isn't technically a rejection is it? Bear in mind parking service initially said they see no reason to cancel after sending the video, so they aren't exactly 'playing by the book'. I previously mentioned the online portal still allows me to send a representation - the form is still there. Is it worth a try to send it now and see what happens, or does anyone advice against this? (It might not even go through, but worth a try). |
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Wed, 12 Aug 2020 - 23:34
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#38
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Member Group: Members Posts: 48 Joined: 5 Aug 2020 Member No.: 109,328 |
Update: remarkably it allowed me to send the rep online (kept it simple: poor signage, lack of signage, not illuminated at night for a banned right turn - something I genuinely missed and hard to spot in dark and rainy conditions) and got a confirmation response on the website and by email.
Not sure if this helps out at all and they can choose to ignore anything after a month but I guess there's no harm trying all routes is there? I will be trying to see if I can contact someone from the council too as I had no luck last time, they've not gave back to my voicemails unsurprisingly - doubt it'll be any help but again no harm in it. |
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Thu, 13 Aug 2020 - 09:01
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#39
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,063 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
Update: remarkably it allowed me to send the rep online (kept it simple: poor signage, lack of signage, not illuminated at night for a banned right turn - something I genuinely missed and hard to spot in dark and rainy conditions) and got a confirmation response on the website and by email. OP, pl don't confuse this with acceptance on their part they they will consider your reps. Auto responses in whatever form are exactly that, auto.. They mean that their end has received something from you, a bit like someone signing for a letter. But it's a step forward. |
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Thu, 13 Aug 2020 - 22:06
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#40
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Member Group: Members Posts: 48 Joined: 5 Aug 2020 Member No.: 109,328 |
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