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Blue badge confiscated, Possible PCN in post
steeringwheel
post Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 14:35
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Hi all,

Some advice please guys.

My partner is disabled and is asthmatic and has a blue badge registered in her name and the vehicle is registered disabled and is registered in my name.

My partner had an appointment and wanted to go shopping at the local high street so, upon arrival I parked in the most convenient disabled bay and my partner set the time on the blue badge clock, put it on the dashboard and went off, I remained in the vehicle.

After about ten minutes I noticed two traffic wardens heading towards me, as they got closer one separated from the other and headed directly towards me.

The traffic warden came to my driver's door window, said hello and then asked: if I was the blue badge holder?

To which I replied no.

He then asked to look at the blue badge.................so, I passed it to him. Again, he asked me if I was the holder? Again, I replied no.

He then asked where the blue badge holder was? I replied shopping.

He then asked a series of questions such as, what shop is she in? How long is she going to be? And, for me to phone her, which I flatly refused to do!!

I explained why I wouldn't phone her. Because she has a walking stick in one hand and her handbag in the other and is of a nervous disposition and would probably get all flustered and anxious and possibly have an asthma attack or not concentrate and stumble.

But, he kept saying "so you are refusing to phone her" to which I replied every time "I am not going to phone her".

He then said you must know where she's gone shopping, to which I replied, all I know is she has an appointment and is going to do some shopping.

And, like Sherlock Holmes having just solved the greatest crime he said Ahh you didn't mention the appointment before so I think you are making it up as you go along, its all recorded on my body camera.

At this point, he said that he would wait for twenty minutes..........he didn't say what would happen after the twenty minutes though!! And he went and stood on the footpath.

After only a few minutes he came back to my side of the vehicle and said that he had spoken with his office and that they had said that if I don't phone the blue badge holder he is going to confiscate the badge............which he was still in possession of.

I again told him that I wasn't going to phone her. I also asked him about the twenty minutes he was going to wait but he didn't reply.

So, I was now parked in a disabled bay without a blue badge so I asked the traffic warden what am I supposed to do now? You have the badge, what if another traffic warden comes along, he may issue me with a PCN?

To which he replied.........I am going to do that now!!

So, I drove off. I had to keep on driving up and down the high street until I eventually found my partner whom by this time was in a terrible state.




Facts after the events:

1} My partner didn't have her phone with her anyway.

2} The traffic warden didn't offer any ID or a receipt for the blue badge.

3} Is he required by law to notify me that the events are being recorded?


Obviously, we will put these facts to the blue badge authority when we try to reclaim the blue badge.

But, where do I stand with regards to a PCN when and if it comes through the post? Because I suppose one could argue that at the time he was going to issue the PCN I didnt have a legitimate reason to be in the disabled bay.

Apologies for the long drawn out post but I just wanted you to have all the facts

Many thanks for any advice!!!!

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post Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 14:35
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hcandersen
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 08:50
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https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1970/44/section/21

This section is quite broad. If the enforcement officer - who could see that the holder of the BB was not the person in the vehicle- asked to be connected to the holder or wanted to know when they would return in order to satisfy themselves as to its proper use, then I think this could be OK. It very much depends on exactly what transpired.

As regards a complaint to the LGO, the writer of the letter did not retain the BB.

We are still short of relevant facts which I hope will be obtained before the apparent insatiable desire to complain becomes overwhelming.
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DancingDad
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 09:35
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 09:50) *
......….We are still short of relevant facts which I hope will be obtained before the apparent insatiable desire to complain becomes overwhelming.


The OP and their partner have the relevant facts.

I think we ought to separate the two entities as they are facing different outcomes.

OP is in the frame for a criminal charge, misuse of the BB.
Given the story we have been told, unlikely to stick but will be what the authorities are thinking may have been what was going on.
Sitting in the car waiting is not misuse no matter what Dorset may believe.
Not making the phone call was perhaps short sighted and does give the CEO reasonable suspicion but that does not excuse the disappearance of the BB.

The Partner and BB holder. Who has been deprived of her BB overtly through no fault of hers.

OP has no need to do anything except try to help partner and be prepared for Bromley's BB abuse/fraud team to be in contact.
BB Holder wants her BB back.
And TBH, it is now day 4 and that Bromley seemingly haven't a clue where the BB is, I believe BB holder has valid cause for complaint.
Not only for the confiscation (which will ignored) but for the c0ck up in the system that is leaving her stranded.
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hcandersen
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 10:04
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It's not confiscation, it's retention as per the Act.

And there is no suggestion that the OP is in the frame for criminal misuse, where did this come from? According to the OP, no warning of such possible action was given by the enforcement officer when the BB was retained.

before so I think you are making it up as you go along, its all recorded on my body camera.

At this point, he said that he would wait for twenty minutes..........he didn't say what would happen after the twenty minutes though!! And he went and stood on the footpath.

After only a few minutes he came back to my side of the vehicle and said that he had spoken with his office and that they had said that if I don't phone the blue badge holder he is going to confiscate the badge..


So we have body camera evidence; the OP knows where they were and the CEO could easily be identified just using the parameters of location and time; we know the CEO was acting under instructions from their office - based on what input to this decision-making process we know not- so all the BB holder needs to do is to write to parking services, preferably email, set out the facts, explain the inconvenience which not having the BB has caused and establish on what basis the BB was retained and would be returned and when.

Targeted, measured, relevant and hopefully prompt.

Copy in the BB issuer.

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DancingDad
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 11:10
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 11:04) *
It's not confiscation, it's retention as per the Act.

And there is no suggestion that the OP is in the frame for criminal misuse, where did this come from? According to the OP, no warning of such possible action was given by the enforcement officer when the BB was retained.

……...



Don't care what you call it, CEO took the BB.
OP is in the frame, the moment the CEO became suspicious due to refusal to make a phone call that scenario started.
Whether it will come to anything is a different matter but make no mistake, a person using a BB that they are not entitled to use and failing to cooperate is in the frame.
It is quite possible that they will end up being interviewed under caution.


If the measured approach is deemed better, then Bromley provide a form to enquire about a BB that has been confiscated. (Their term)
I would suggest that if the BB holder uses it then they provide details of appointment and shopping, receipts etc to verify where they were at the time.
https://www.bromley.gov.uk/site/xfp/scripts....php?formID=337

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 11:11
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 12:26
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I like it when hca plays devil's advocate but for "confiscation" and "retention" read deprivation.

The Council has tried to justify it's position, in writing, and has been found wanting. They cannot for one moment contend that the driver should not be present when a BB is displayed and the badge holder is off doing her shopping. If this is their only justification for taking the BB then there is maladministration. Not only have they failed in their duty of care they have acted with prejudice against the BB holder.

The more I read this thread the more I feel the CEO acted irresponsibly (because of the OP's intransigence) and the back office are trying to justify the CEO's actions. If there was no evidence for a possible prosecution then the CEO has acted rashly.

Mick
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DancingDad
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 13:20
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 13:26) *
I like it when hca plays devil's advocate but for "confiscation" and "retention" read deprivation.

The Council has tried to justify it's position, in writing, and has been found wanting. They cannot for one moment contend that the driver should not be present when a BB is displayed and the badge holder is off doing her shopping. If this is their only justification for taking the BB then there is maladministration. Not only have they failed in their duty of care they have acted with prejudice against the BB holder.

The more I read this thread the more I feel the CEO acted irresponsibly (because of the OP's intransigence) and the back office are trying to justify the CEO's actions. If there was no evidence for a possible prosecution then the CEO has acted rashly.

Mick


Two different councils Mick !


CEO from Bromley took the BB.
Bromley are the ones who seem to have mislaid the BB.
And I assume it would be Bromley taking it further on misuse if they believe this may be the case.

Dorset are the issuing authority and though they seem misguided as to misuse, it would not be them making any attempt to justify the CEOs actions in any real sense.
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Neil B
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 16:11
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 14:20) *
And I assume it would be Bromley taking it further on misuse if they believe this may be the case.

Dorset are the issuing authority and though they seem misguided as to misuse, it would not be them making any attempt to justify the CEOs actions in any real sense.

I think would be more likely the issuing authority if anyone was to pursue an allegation of misuse.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 17:02
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 17:11) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 14:20) *
And I assume it would be Bromley taking it further on misuse if they believe this may be the case.

Dorset are the issuing authority and though they seem misguided as to misuse, it would not be them making any attempt to justify the CEOs actions in any real sense.

I think would be more likely the issuing authority if anyone was to pursue an allegation of misuse.

For once I disagree, I think it's far more likely any prosecution would be brought by the authority in who's area the misuse is said to have taken place. However I agree that on the facts of the case, no misuse took place.


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DancingDad
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 19:50
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 17:11) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 14:20) *
And I assume it would be Bromley taking it further on misuse if they believe this may be the case.

Dorset are the issuing authority and though they seem misguided as to misuse, it would not be them making any attempt to justify the CEOs actions in any real sense.

I think would be more likely the issuing authority if anyone was to pursue an allegation of misuse.


Judging by Bromley's web pages, it will be Bromley, they seem quite prepared to pursue BB abuse.
https://www.bromley.gov.uk/press/article/14...tions_and_fines

Whether they will or not in this case remains to be seen.
Given OP's story, it is difficult how any allegation would stick but the basic ingredients are there, BB in use and the holder not present plus person using the BB not cooperating.
As long as the holder can show credible evidence that she was in the area at the time, any allegation will fail.
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cp8759
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 20:19
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 20:50) *
As long as the holder can show credible evidence that she was in the area at the time, any allegation will fail.

Let's not forget that as BB misuse is a criminal matter, it is not necessary to prove much, only that the accused might reasonably be innocent. With that in mind, I see zero chance of a conviction here.


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DancingDad
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 20:38
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 21:19) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 20:50) *
As long as the holder can show credible evidence that she was in the area at the time, any allegation will fail.

Let's not forget that as BB misuse is a criminal matter, it is not necessary to prove much, only that the accused might reasonably be innocent. With that in mind, I see zero chance of a conviction here.



Fully agree and intention is not to panic the OP.
But they should be aware further investigation may happen and be prepared.
If the story is true (I believe it is) and things like shopping receipts, card payments and appointment can be shown that place BB holder in the area, it won't get past a few questions.

TBH, I think many convictions come about either by the holder being located and positively not present or the user confessing.
Otherwise it is suspicion without proof.


It is concerning me that Bromley do not seem to be able to locate the BB.
You would think there would be a system at end of shift for any confiscated to be handed over with appropriate paperwork, bodycam footage etc...ie a contemporaneous evidence trail that should be easily located.
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steeringwheel
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 12:18
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Hi guys,

There has been a new development, my partner the blue badge holder called Bromley council this morning and was told that the badge had been sent back to the issuing authority to be sent back to the holder. And, that was confirmed by Dorset council. So, that's good news.

But, Bromley wouldn't discuss the matter further as there is still an investigation going on with regards to me.

Can anyone please advise as what way things may go from here.

I know wait and see is the most obvious one. But, I've read that it is not a criminal offence to wait in the vehicle and yet the council still interpret it as misuse but, where is it in the rules?

And, my refusal to call my partner on the phone after explaining why I would not.......is that also deemed as misuse? Where are these rules?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Regards

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hcandersen
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 13:13
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If you continue to conduct your activities by phone then on your and the BB holder's heads be it.

You must write.

so all the BB holder needs to do is to write to parking services, preferably email, set out the facts, explain the inconvenience which not having the BB has caused and establish on what basis the BB was retained and would be returned and when.


The authority must write in response.

Pl get on with it.

At present, if we strip out all references to phone calls and uncorroborated claims then all we have is the first post. No very informative.

I'm out until the BB holder does. The OP has no standing UNLESS the authority or BB issuer allege misuse or whatever on their part. Until then they're a third party.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Tue, 7 May 2019 - 13:16
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steeringwheel
post Mon, 13 May 2019 - 10:06
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Hi guys,

Did as hcandersen advised and sent Bromley council parking services an email outlining everything that was suggested and received a reply this morning, which read......the blue badge has been sent to the issuing authority to be sent back to the registered holder. No further information is available at this time as there is an ongoing investigation into the incident.

So, I now have in writing what they told me on the phone last week. Does that benefit me in anyway?
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cp8759
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 19:42
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QUOTE (steeringwheel @ Mon, 13 May 2019 - 11:06) *
Hi guys,

Did as hcandersen advised and sent Bromley council parking services an email outlining everything that was suggested and received a reply this morning, which read......the blue badge has been sent to the issuing authority to be sent back to the registered holder. No further information is available at this time as there is an ongoing investigation into the incident.

So, I now have in writing what they told me on the phone last week. Does that benefit me in anyway?

Get the BB holder to send this to the issuing council and ask for the badge to be returned.


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steeringwheel
post Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 10:05
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Hi guys,

Apologies for being off line....been in hospital for the last three weeks, all good now.

Ok, thanks to cp8759 for his suggestion, I did that just before my hospital appointment and a couple of days later the BB arrived along with a letter telling the holder that she'd been lucky this time but if, a similar situation was reported to them then they would be forced to take different action.

And, on Friday last week I sent Bromley council another email enquiring about any further possible action to be taken against me and I'm please to tell you that they replied this morning informing me that no further action will be taken and that as far as they are concerned the matter is closed.

So, from a very happy chappie............thank you all very very much.
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DancingDad
post Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 11:01
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Good news mate, thanks for updating us.

If I may, this could have all been avoided had you initially cooperated more with the CEO.
Easy to criticise in hindsight so don't take it personally but worth remembering in the future.

I have been in similar situations BTW, my eldest daughter has a BB in her own right.
Which I display when parking for her benefit.
Have been queried by CEOs more then once as a big fit looking guy displaying a BB.
Once introduced to my daughter, CEOs are happy.
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steeringwheel
post Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 11:46
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Yeah, thanks Dancing dad.

No offense taken but in future I wont be remaining in the vehicle, done deal.

Again, big thank you to everyone who gave advice in their own time to guide us through this ordeal, we really do appreciate all your help.

I do hope that I dont have to use you again but, I feel reassured that should I need to, you guys will be there to help.

Keep up the good work. 👌👍🤙
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