First class post v E mail v online. |
First class post v E mail v online. |
Thu, 17 Jan 2019 - 17:52
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
What are the available proofs of delivery available for:
1) First class post with certificate of posting from the Post Office Counter. 2) E mail. 3) Online form completion. How easy would it be to contest delivery for each method, in court? -------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Thu, 17 Jan 2019 - 17:52
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Thu, 17 Jan 2019 - 18:18
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
That will vary depending upon the applicable rules, the purpose and the facts.
-------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Thu, 17 Jan 2019 - 19:21
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
My main interest is in connection with private parking tickets.
I am concerned that appeals by E mail or online forms could be denied by some of the more unscrupulous PPCs. Are you aware of any court cases or legislation that gives electronic forms a similar status to the service of NtKs by first class post as shown in PoFA sched 4, inter alia sec 8(6), 9(6)? Is it a general principle that first class post is deemed delivered in two working days unless evidenced to the contrary? -------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Thu, 17 Jan 2019 - 20:24
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,194 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
There are no ‘rules’, as such you can neither comply or not!
-------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Thu, 17 Jan 2019 - 20:28
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
???
-------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Thu, 17 Jan 2019 - 21:24
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,194 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
Appealing a private parking ticket is not part of a legal process, there is no specified means of appealing or even that you have to appeal, nor that there are any implications of not appealing, it is, after all, just an invoice, as such if you appeal you can use any method that suited you.
-------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 00:16
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,126 Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Member No.: 96,238 |
Small Claims court decides on the balance of probabilities - better than 50:50
It doesn't need forensic standards of proof Letter : Free certificate of sending from Post Office. First class deemed delivered two business days later unless PPC proves it wasn't Email : Blind copy to a second address. Court can assume that copy to PPC was received On-line : Screenshots of appeal and acknowledgement |
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Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 00:20
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
Small Claims court decides on the balance of probabilities - better than 50:50 It doesn't need forensic standards of proof Letter : Free certificate of sending from Post Office. First class deemed delivered two business days later unless PPC proves it wasn't Email : Blind copy to a second address. Court can assume that copy to PPC was received On-line : Screenshots of appeal and acknowledgement Almost all civil claims are decided on the balance of probabilities, that is no different in small claims as it is in the High Court. And it certainly does need a “forensic standard of proof”, which simply means proof in court on the balance of probabilities. What authority are you using to say that a letter is deemed delivered two days later - there are several and each depends on the circumstances. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 05:56
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,194 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
I’m not aware of any statute that states a response to an invoice is delivered two days later.
-------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 13:04
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,140 Joined: 19 Jun 2004 From: Surrey Member No.: 1,326 |
For email (depending on the software) you may be able to include a read receipt request.
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Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 10:41
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,885 Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Member No.: 78,368 |
Yes, and could some of these PPC not click the read receipt box and delete it?
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Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 10:46
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,735 Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Member No.: 14,720 |
Yes, and could some of these PPC not click the read receipt box and delete it? Of couse they can. I do every time. -------------------- |
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Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 14:49
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,306 Joined: 4 Mar 2017 Member No.: 90,659 |
Sending emails is not a one way process like a letter. Your email provider hops across servers to the receiving mail server, then basically does sone two way chat which will end with a 250 response which means the receiving server has accepted the email for delivery.
CODE S: 220 smtp.server.com Simple Mail Transfer Service Ready C: HELO client.example.com S: 250 Hello client.example.com C: MAIL FROM:<mail@samlogic.com> S: 250 OK C: RCPT TO:<john@mail.com> S: 250 OK C: DATA S: 354 Send message content; end with <CRLF>.<CRLF> C: <The message data (body text, subject, e-mail header, attachments etc) is sent> C: . S: 250 OK, message accepted for delivery: queued as 12345 C: QUIT S: 221 Bye Essentially you can't prove it was delivered to an account, but you can prove that if they didn't receive it, it is the fault of their email provider. It's a lot more than normal post. |
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Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 15:25
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,860 Joined: 12 May 2012 Member No.: 54,871 |
Is it a general principle that first class post is deemed delivered in two working days unless evidenced to the contrary? If you can prove (by means of a Certificate of Posting) that you have posted a letter, then "presumption of service" is that it is delivered two working days later. Obviously, it would be difficult to "prove" non-delivery, unless the sorting office burnt down for example. |
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Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 15:34
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
Is it a general principle that first class post is deemed delivered in two working days unless evidenced to the contrary? If you can prove (by means of a Certificate of Posting) that you have posted a letter, then "presumption of service" is that it is delivered two working days later. Obviously, it would be difficult to "prove" non-delivery, unless the sorting office burnt down for example. Where does that presumption come from? -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 18:25
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#16
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Member Group: Life Member Posts: 24,212 Joined: 9 Sep 2004 From: Reading Member No.: 1,624 |
Apologies to those that appear to enjoy 'playing with their food', but there is no overarching statutory presumption of service, but there are statutory presumptions of service in certain circumstances - primarily under s. 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 - which applies "[w]here an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post".
-------------------- Andy
Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit. |
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Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 18:37
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
Apologies to those that appear to enjoy 'playing with their food' Or, alternatively, are open to being told something they don’t already know. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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