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Posted by: Aiden Sat, 1 Jun 2019 - 21:57
Post #1489292

I'm slightly concerned on a stretch of road I commute down for which road words had been happening on for two years. I just wanted to get a discussion going to see if it's worth raising it with the authority in case some poor soul gets hit with a speed ticket yet the signage isn't there properly.

The speed camera in question can be seen here: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.590714,0.216232,3a,75y,301.11h,78.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sS9u9DWPJgtf7_Ti0G7hQcg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

So long story short, up until about April 2019, road works had been going on and the speed limit for that entire stretch of road was set to 30MPH. Since the road works had finished, that speed limit had been increased to its original 40MPH speed limit. No complaints there. The google earth picture was taken with the road works ongoing so it's not a true image of the road from today as it's about a year out.

About 40meters before that speed camera is reached, a 30mph speed limit repeater is stuck on the lamp posts on both side of the road. We also have a 30MPH speed limit painted on the road.

From what I understood, for a speed limit to be enforceable, don't we need those large 30mph speed limit signs or is the repeater and road markings enough? I should mention that there is no large sign at all indicating the start of a 30MPH limit. The previous speed limit sign is a 40mph one

Posted by: BaggieBoy Sat, 1 Jun 2019 - 23:40
Post #1489308

There is a system of streetlights, no signs needed. The "repeater" is one of those camera warning types.

Posted by: Aiden Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 01:21
Post #1489316

Ok, but before hand its all street lights too and the limit is 40MPH. In fact, when I turn onto the road, there's even a 40MPH limit sign too.

With the repeater being small and possible being unreadable at night, wouldn't that be a concern if you combine the fact that they could easily see the 40mph limit with street lights and possible miss the 30mph.

I think it may help if I upload a clip from my dash cam on monday coming down that road so you guys can see exactly what's happened since

Posted by: Jlc Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 09:42
Post #1489342

What does the TRO say?

Posted by: cp8759 Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 13:35
Post #1489371

There must be terminal 30 mph signs where the limit drops from 40 to 30. If it is possible to pass a 40 sign and then get to the camera without passing a terminal 30 sign, there would appear to be an issue with the signage. Post a link to the location on google street view to this turning you speak of.

Posted by: Aiden Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 19:08
Post #1489424

My understanding was that for a change in speed limit, we should have one of those large red circle's with the new speed within on both sides of the road



Google street view is about a year out of date for that road, so tomorrow I'll drive down on my way home from work with my dash cam on to show you guys exactly what I see from the turning up to the speed camera.

Posted by: Aiden Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 19:01
Post #1490421

Sorry for the delay. I never got around to going down the road until today.

I've uploaded the video here: https://streamable.com/l2uxl

To give a bit of context, I didn't upload the part of me turning to the road as that's irrelevant. There are actually 40MPH speed signs on the main road itself.
I can't see any large 30MPH still

Key points of the video (from what i see):
0:05 -> 40MPH sign on the right of the road
0:09 -> 40MPH sign on left of the road
0:17 -> First 30MPH indication on the surface of the road
0:18 -> Small 30MPH sign on right of the road
0:25 -> Second 30MPH printed on the surface of the road
(Some unfortunate traffic starts here)
0:50 -> Small 30MPH speed signs on both sides of the road
1:05 -> Last 30MPH road sign and the speed camera on the left enforcing 30MPH

Posted by: bama Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 20:23
Post #1498314

isn't it SOP for the termimal signs etc to be checked by the enforcement bods before setting up ?
IIRC it used to be. (and was more observed in the breach than in the observance...have known them to eff it up with long term static cameras never mind temporary ones)

Posted by: cp8759 Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 00:58
Post #1504894

In the absence of terminal signs there could be some enforcement difficulties with these signs, but it's not a sure thing. It would all be very fact specific.

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 12:03
Post #1504943

40mph terminal sign

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5887832,0.2201212,3a,42y,288.98h,75.08t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sNgg2pQtHmkSYvXLgiC4bKQ!2e0!5s20190501T000000!7i16384!8i8192

30mph road marking, there are 3 of these + 2 of the repeaters but no 30mph terminal signs

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.589473,0.2187016,3a,75y,291.23h,79.3t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s4jmiJK5XyWTIk99XhU4K3g!2e0!5s20190501T000000!7i16384!8i8192

Posted by: cp8759 Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 16:04
Post #1504982

In heavy / queuing traffic the road markings might be obscured.

There are no repeaters as repeaters are prohibited on a lit 30 mph road, there are a couple of information signs (diagram 880) but there might be a lorry in lane 2 obscuring your view of the first diagram 880 sign, you then move to lane two and again there's a high-sided vehicle blocking the other diagram 880 sign, you get to the speed cameras when traffic has freed up a bit and confidently go past with your sat-nav showing you're dead on 40 mph and FLASH FLASH.

Not a sure thing by any means, but to be honest I'm not convinced the police would even pursue it once the signage issues were pointed out to them.

Posted by: Aiden Sun, 25 Aug 2019 - 22:19
Post #1510522

Thanks All.

I'll write up a letter to the Highways Agency and to the police to get this rectified.

Posted by: The Rookie Mon, 26 Aug 2019 - 06:38
Post #1510535

Are terminal signs needed where there is a system of street lighting for the limit to be enforceable?

While it would not be a defence, it may form SRNTE or not in the public interest, but I don't see a legal issue with enforcement.

Posted by: Aiden Mon, 26 Aug 2019 - 20:58
Post #1510714

The trouble I have is, the 40 MPH limit prior to the 30 MPH limit is also street lit. With no terminal signs, how is one to know the limit has dropped? Are the painted limits on the road an alternative to the terminals? Problem with that could be in very heavy rain, you could easily miss that too

Posted by: The Rookie Tue, 27 Aug 2019 - 09:04
Post #1510762

Your problem is that where there is a system of streetlighting a lack of signage is not a bar to prosecution. It may not be fair, but that's the law.

So for me you don't have a legal defence, what you would have is an argument known as 'Special Reason's Not to Endorse', where you argue that as you couldn't have known about the limit it would be unfair to punish you, while it refers to the licence endorsement if accepted then usually no fine/costs will be ordered either.

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2005/2729.html is relevant to SRNTE and worth a read (even though he lost).
Note it establishes the 4 key principles,
1/ There must be a mitigating or an extenuating circumstance
2/ not amounting in law to a defence to the charge, but
3/ directly connected with the commission of the offence and such as
4/ the Court ought properly to take into consideration when imposing sentence.

Why signage isn't needed to convict

Paragraph 4 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/85