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Bristol Council late responding to my Bus Lane representation- 56 day rule?
Norman83
post Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 22:32
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Hi there.
On 4th March I got hit by driving through a non-clearly marked ‘bus link’ on Romney avenue in Bristol.
I drove back through it a few minutes later (snow on ground and bright sunlight) and got hit again.
Two separate PCNs came through the post and I made representations for both on 28th March (online).

I heard nothing for ages, then received 2 letters on 16th July, rejecting both my reps. (surprise surprise)

These rejections came 110 days after the submission date of my reps, or 130 days after the rejection letter’s given date of reps being made (9th March for some reason, see letter).

Can someone help me with what to do here please?
I’m aware there is a 56 day rule for councils to respond by, which they’ve obviously massively missed, can someone clarify if their rejections are null as a result?

If so, how to I point out to them they have no case?
I need to be sure I’m right on this, as the current ‘discounted charge’ of £30 per charge (£60 total) applies for another few days, after which or if I make an appeal, it’s for the full total of £60 per charge.

I have an email and phone number I can use to get in touch with them.
Hoping I don’t have to appeal and I can politely tell them where to shove it!

Thanks in advance

Here’s the text regarding the 56 day rule i found on this site:

10.19 The enforcement authority must consider representations and any supporting evidence against a Notice to Owner or immobilisation or removal, and serve notice of its decision on the person making the representations within 56 days of the service of the representations whether or not it accepts that the ground in question has been established. The 56 day period in the Regulations should be seen as the maximum period and authorities should aim to decide representations as quickly as possible. The Secretary of State considers that all decision notices should be served within 21 days
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post Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 22:32
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cp8759
post Wed, 1 Aug 2018 - 20:40
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 1 Aug 2018 - 20:23) *
@cp8759

The draft is wrong on the phone surcharge. I have used the wrong prefix---Bristol is 0870 what should be written?

Mick

The principle is the same, and the quoted text is just taken from https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-telecoms-an...all-really-cost

The text for 0870 says:

"The cost of calling 087 numbers is made up of two parts: an access charge going to your phone company, and a service charge set by the organisation you are calling.

The service charge for calls to 087 numbers is between 0p and 13p per minute.
"

Everything else can remain the same.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Wed, 1 Aug 2018 - 20:44


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 1 Aug 2018 - 21:41
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Thanks ----I've amended the draft.

Mick
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Norman83
post Thu, 2 Aug 2018 - 10:20
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Thank you @Mick for your draft, and @hc and @cp.

I attach the original PCNs in case that's of any use. Realise I never posted them.

PCN 1:

PCN 2:
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Norman83
post Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 09:22
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Hi all,

3 points:

1) I'm making my appeal on https://foam.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk

It's asking me on what basis I want to make my appeal.

The only option that seems relevant is "The alleged bus lane contravention did not occur. - For example: The signs and lines were wrong, the vehicle was permitted to be in the bus lane, or the vehicle was not in the bus lane."

Is this correct?
None of the other options seem relevant, but as far as the council are concerned, it did occur!
i.e. I was in a bus lane (correct), was not permitted to be in the bus lane, and the signs and lines (as far as the council are concerned) are correct.

2) I need to add the full appeal as an attachment to 'evidence' as there's a 500 word limit on the initial explanation.
(Though this isn't really 'evidence' right - it's the actual appeal?)

Which form does this document take? (attached image showing list of the options)

3) Is it worth attaching the PCNs and the Rejection letters? (e.g.as the show the PCN images which show no bus lane signs in them)

Many thanks
Chris

This post has been edited by Norman83: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 09:39
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cp8759
post Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 09:47
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Ground 3 falls under "The alleged bus lane contravention did not occur", all the other grounds fall under "the penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances", this is because the amount due in the circumstances is zero.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 09:47


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Norman83
post Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 15:02
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Thanks CP. I've gone with 'did not occur' as you can only choose one.

I listed the evidence as 'challenge rejection'.

Let's see what they come back with!

thanks
Chris
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Mrs Angry Bristo...
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 14:17
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Hi Im new to this forum. I too opposed the fine I received in March for crossing the Bus gate on Romney Ave. A simple accident for which I turned around and left the road straight away. Funny they didnt photo that ! After 170 days I have now received a reduced fine. After reading through the threads I wondered if 'Norman' ever had his fine revoked? I am wondering if I should go ahead and now pay the reduced fine or is it still worth me fighting my corner?
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peterguk
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 14:19
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QUOTE (Mrs Angry Bristol @ Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 15:17) *
Hi Im new to this forum. I too opposed the fine I received in March for crossing the Bus gate on Romney Ave.


Please start your own thread. Hijacking other threads just causes confusion.


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Norman83
post Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 11:37
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Hi all,

Update - through the Tribunal Penalty Tribunal website I was asked if I wanted a telephone hearing or for the case to be decided straight away by the adjudicator.

I've gone for the phone call option as I'd be interested to hear more from the perspective of the adjudicator.

I think I will say very little as don't want to undo the work of the appeal text helpfully crafted by you guys on the forum.

Incidentally, I uploaded my One piece of evidence, my Challenge of Rejection, and the authority has uploaded 14 pieces. To be fair many of these are things I could have uploaded myself (the original PCNs, the notice of rejection etc), but hopefully it's not a case of who can upload the largest number of pieces of evidence!
Any thoughts?

I'm going on holiday tomorrow till early Sept so will get a call some time after that (who knows when).

Fingers crossed for a positive result!
thanks
Norman
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cp8759
post Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 18:51
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It's worth adding that the adjudicator is unlikely to open any links, you should upload the RTF version of the High Court judgment. The council upload that evidence simply because they are required to, if they didn't they would automatically lose.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Norman83
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 09:37
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Hi all,

Quick update - I had my hearing just now. And I won!!

The adjudicator wouldn't even let me get to point 3 of the 6 points listed on my appeal, and stated that based on the photo and video evidence that the council had provided, no bus lane signs could be seen, and he suspects that they are there, but "suspicion is provides no assurance of fact, and on this occasion, I cannot be sure that the signage was adequate or present, so based on this fact I am allowing your appeal, and you have won".

Interestingly when I started talking about the 111 days that it took the council to respond, he said he didn't want me to tell him about the technicalities on which I appeal (essentially the basis of all 6 points of appeal), 'which may or may not help you' but said 'tell me about the day you drove up there'. Human angle - not an angle I was expecting!

I had lots of other questions for him, but he wouldn't answer them (didn't even get to the bit about excessive phone charges) as he said it essentially didn't matter as his decision had already been made.
Then he told me to have a good weekend and that was that!

Thank you to all of you, Dancing Dad, CP8759, Past my Best and hcandersen for all your advice, and especially to Mad Mick V for drafting my response. Very much appreciated!

223 days on, and the matter is put to rest!

Have good weekends all.

Chris (Norman)
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John U.K.
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 09:50
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Well done smile.gif

Do post the decision here when you receive it, to help others, as TPT decisions are noit readily accessible.
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