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Havering - 50r offences, PCN sent to wrong address
Amp_333
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 09:46
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Good Morning all,

Just for context, I have been parking in Upminster (Havering Council) daily and occasionally turned right at the end of Howard Road, despite this being prohibited (I was obviously unaware).

I have received 3 PCN's so far for May (1st being the earliest). They were sent to my previous address (V5c has not been updated but has been sent away, there is however no evidence of this) and have only become apparent when they were delivered to my house at the weekend by the current house owner. I am surprised there are not more, but I am sure more will be coming for June. I did not contest these first three fines and paid £130, £65 and £65 respectively as I am at fault and should have noticed the signs, hopefully they all go through without follow up fines etc. I will call them shortly to see if they can tell me on the phone the amount and details of outstanding offences.

I committed the offences as I was genuinely unaware of the restriction. I occasionally parked in a disabled space (with a blue badge) which is adjacent to the road painting stating left only (therefore I could not see it), and a short distance from the end of the street.

I have taken a generic screenshot from Google maps to show the street in question, and ironically the car parked on the double yellows in front does demonstrate how some others park there which can obscure one of the signs somewhat (in one instance it was a police van parked there all day). Mostly I am returning to my vehicle around 21:30-22:00.

Do I have any grounds to appeal the amount of fines I will receive? Had I known after the first PCN offence (1st May) that I was not allowed to turn right, I would obviously have stopped doing so but I have only just being informed of this. I know I should have noticed the signs, letter or not, but potentially this could run into the thousands in fines.


Thank you

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This post has been edited by Amp_333: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 09:47
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post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 09:46
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 10:21
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What do you want to appeal against. Those you have paid are closed and those you think you might get we cannot advise on until you get them and post them up here


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Amp_333
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 10:44
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 11:21) *
What do you want to appeal against. Those you have paid are closed and those you think you might get we cannot advise on until you get them and post them up here


Is there any limitation on the amount you can receive for the same offence over a set period? Or, in your opinion, would there be any lenience given?

From my PCN's to date, that it has taken on average 14 days from the offence to receive the PCN so they may keep trickling through until the end of next week which will mean any I receive today will pass the 14 days beforehand, unless I appealed them immediately. If I only had 1 or 2 i will just pay them, however If I receive another say 10 then would it be worth arguing the case?

Regarding the 28 days to pay, is that working days or calendar days?

Thank you
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 11:00
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Any contraventions committed before the date of notice of the first (before you found out it was a contravention) could be considered a continuing contravention But no there are no limits if you commit separate offences


If I was you I would phone the council and ask them how many if any PCN's are outstanding and ensure the expeditiously send them to you them post them here


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Amp_333
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 11:15
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 12:00) *
Any contraventions committed before the date of notice of the first (before you found out it was a contravention) could be considered a continuing contravention But no there are no limits if you commit separate offences


If I was you I would phone the council and ask them how many if any PCN's are outstanding and ensure the expeditiously send them to you them post them here



I tried that, there is no way to speak to anyone from Parking aside from the switchboard, they said everything must be done online and so I filled in a form earlier this morning, should hear back within 24 hours.

My first notice (1st May offence) was issued on 17th May so calendar wise I am outside the 28 days, hopefully the £130 keeps them happy enough to leave it.

*Edit* As I only found out about the contravention yesterday (due to the wrong address) can this be treated as the date, or would it be 2 days after the "Date of Notice" for the first PCN?



This post has been edited by Amp_333: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 11:21
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John U.K.
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 11:46
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Be aware that everything will be sent to the address on the V5C. You must be able to retrieve mail from that address promptly. Any arrangements in place for redirection?.

That said, have you advised the Council of your current address and explained that your V5C is at present weith the DVLA being updated?

Havering give this number
Phone us

General enquiries: 01708 434343 (9am to 5pm)


You may (entirely separately) wish to take up with a local councillor the lack of any apparent telephone contact number for parking enquiries.
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Neil B
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 14:10
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If you do get any more make sure you bring them here.
Havering moving traffic PCNs are fairly easy to beat.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Amp_333
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 16:02
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QUOTE (John U.K. @ Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 12:46) *
Be aware that everything will be sent to the address on the V5C. You must be able to retrieve mail from that address promptly. Any arrangements in place for redirection?.

That said, have you advised the Council of your current address and explained that your V5C is at present weith the DVLA being updated?

Havering give this number
Phone us

General enquiries: 01708 434343 (9am to 5pm)


You may (entirely separately) wish to take up with a local councillor the lack of any apparent telephone contact number for parking enquiries.


Thanks for your advice, that is the number I was calling, I tried all of their parking options which essentially advises you to do everything online. Their switchboard operator then informed me that parking do not speak to anyone on the phone. *Edit* I did inform them of this in my email, will have to chase up the DVLA to see what my registered address is, i.e. if my v5c was lost on the way to them or to me.

5 PCN's so far now. 2 are paid and clear, one they have said that "is at £195.00 you will have to wait for the order for recovery in order to file an Out of Time Statutory declaration form".

This is the original one which I paid £130 for, hoping the 28 days would be working days, it is not! How best to proceed in this case, i.e. can I leave it to the out of time declaration form then state I was unaware until now and hope it is reduced to 65 again (with a refund)?

I paid by credit card so I could cancel it, however this seems a little pointless in a way as I would still declare I was only informed yesterday, but it may circumvent the refund scenario.

Thanks again, apologies for all the confusion!

This post has been edited by Amp_333: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 16:04
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 16:14
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We have got to see some documents pronto


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John U.K.
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 16:24
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 16:14) *
We have got to see some documents pronto


+1
QUOTE
5 PCN's so far now. 2 are paid and clear, one they have said that "is at £195.00 you will have to wait for the order for recovery in order to file an Out of Time Statutory declaration form".


As well as posating up all sides of the docs you have received so far, please also compile a timeline with the dates of the PCNs and any sunsequent actioons for each.

e.g.
Date PCN 1... paid ...date.
Datre PCN 2 ..chalenged...date.

Etc.

This post has been edited by John U.K.: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 16:24
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Neil B
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 16:41
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QUOTE (Amp_333 @ Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 17:02) *
"is at £195.00

So you should find they haven't taken your £130 payment?

As others, let's see the docs quick.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Amp_333
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 16:46
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I can do this tomorrow for three of them, will arrange to collect the other two asap as they are obviously as the wrong house still. The current owner is keeping an eye out for them as the envelopes are distinctive enough (and in my name).

Any advice on what to do for the currently part paid one? I regret paying the £130 now and should have just left it until the out of time declaration but as it is not 'closed' can I still contest it with the hope of it being reduced back to the £65 (as that would pay for one of my other ones). If I was to call the bank and cancel the payment I should do it asap.

Thanks again

QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 17:41) *
QUOTE (Amp_333 @ Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 17:02) *
"is at £195.00

So you should find they haven't taken your £130 payment?

As others, let's see the docs quick.


I paid with credit card so I imagine the statement will show I have paid 130 towards and still owe 65? Will check online banking tomorrow to see if it is showing. The payment was only yesterday so will take some time to come through in the post, I believe they have already sent out the out of time form for me to complete.
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Neil B
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 16:58
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Host images externally and paste the BB codes (not links) directly into replies here.

e.g. Flickr, Imgur, ibb.

QUOTE (Amp_333 @ Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 17:46) *
(as that would pay for one of my other ones)

WTF?
I've already told you; you don't pay these!
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 15:10) *
If you do get any more make sure you bring them here.
Havering moving traffic PCNs are fairly easy to beat.



QUOTE (Amp_333 @ Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 17:46) *
I imagine

We don't 'imagine' anything on here; we check.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Amp_333
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 17:16
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I will do, I'll pop into work and scan them on my way home. Do you need scans of all the second pages if they are identical (bar the reference number)?

Do they have to refund the money if I had paid but not the full amount as per my first PCN, and the TEC rule in my favour as such?

I only said imagine based on what I have found on here regarding previous cases, and as I won't receive this letter for some time regarding my part payment and whilst I know I have some time, there won't be a huge amount left by the time they stop coming through!
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Neil B
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 17:24
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QUOTE (Amp_333 @ Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 18:16) *
Do you need scans of all the second pages if they are identical

Just one.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 18:02
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They will no doubt have allocated the money to one of the others but you need to find out which

To clear things up

If you pay £65 within 14 days then that is it PCN closed

If you pay £130 within 28 days that is it PCN closed

If you do not pay and not make representations it increases to £195 after that bailiffs can become involved and cost can be sky high so time is not your friend. We can help but need the docs

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 18:06


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Amp_333
post Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 00:00
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Hello,

I have hopefully attached the documents now. I redacted vehicle ID, date/time and reference numbers but if more information is needed I can comply. The photographs clearly show the offence when viewed online so cannot explore that avenue (again, I have obscured in the photos). Pages 2 and 3 are identical, bar the reference number and date.

PCN 1 - Exceeded 28 days as did not know it existed until 16th June. I paid £130 but have been told through email that I owe £195. No further paperwork at this time.
PCN 2 - Paid for (16th June)
PCN 3 - Paid for (16th June)
PCN 4 - TBA - No offence date given or letter received but I have a reference number
PCN 5 - TBA - No offence date given or letter received but I have a reference number

PCN 1 is my main issue now as 2 and 3 are completed, 4 and 5 I have not received. Do I wait to see what documentation arrives, or should i request a refund for my £130 from the council, and when it arrives complete the Witness statement, claiming that I did not receive the notice until the 16th? When claiming on these grounds, do they only respond positively when you did not receive the PCN at all, rather than receiving it late in my case? Obviously time will be against me due to the period that these will arrive over and it would be nice to know the complete size of the batch beforehand.

Thanks again.

PCN 1
upload

PCN 2

upload

PCN 3

upload

Page 2
upload


Page 3
upload

This post has been edited by Amp_333: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 06:54
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hcandersen
post Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 08:53
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OP, you are a classic example of a little knowledge being a bad thing.

For example, you posted that the PCN dated 17 May was outside the 28-day period on 17 June.

It wasn't, 17th June was the last day. ( 17 May was a Friday, deemed served 2 working days later i.e. 21 May which counts as day 1, hence 17 June was day 28).

I don't know how you miscounted, perhaps your uncertainty regarding whether days are 'working or calendar' might explain.

And given that you appreciate the importance of dates, posting PCN's without dates/times doesn't really work!

Can you pl just strip out everything to do with the contraventions and just give us a chronology of events for PCNs received. And EVERY action you've taken must be dated i.e. not I did X, but on ** I did X by email,post,online etc.
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Neil B
post Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 09:19
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 09:53) *
For example, you posted that the PCN dated 17 May was outside the 28-day period on 17 June.

It wasn't, 17th June was the last day. ( 17 May was a Friday, deemed served 2 working days later i.e. 21 May which counts as day 1, hence 17 June was day 28).

No, it was late. Payment deadline 13th. DoS not relevant here.

QUOTE (Amp_333 @ Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 01:00) *
PCN 4 - TBA - No offence date given or letter received but I have a reference number
PCN 5 - TBA - No offence date given or letter received but I have a reference number

Then look online for details. You need to know if PCNs on their way.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 09:20
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I should wake up before I post! biggrin.gif
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