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PCN in Plymouth resident's bay, Didn't get out in the morning with the visitor permit in time
Teddintgon
post Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 18:49
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Hi,
Visiting a friend in Plymouth for the first time and having arrived late the previous evening in the dark, got the signs wrong and thought restrictions started from 9:30, not 9am. Came out the house to see the CEO sticking it on the windscreen. I'm hoping that someone here who knows about such things can spot something clever on the ticket or the signs because I haven't been able to. In the GSV link, mine was parked roughly where the silver Audi is.

Thanks all

PCN Front

PCN Back


CEO images






GSV
https://goo.gl/maps/nX94cvmj5cm

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post Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 18:49
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Teddintgon
post Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 19:21
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Don't know if this makes any difference at all, but just in case it's useful.

The back of the PCN says "Details of the Council's policy and approach to challenges can be found at www.plymouth.gov.uk/parkingandbuslanefines" and I certainly cannot find that information here. I'm not sure if there's a statutory duty on public bodies like the Council to tell the truth, but at the very least they are putting incorrect information on the PCN. Is this sort of information just to general to be useful to me here?

thanks,
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Incandescent
post Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 19:58
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QUOTE (Teddintgon @ Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 20:21) *
Don't know if this makes any difference at all, but just in case it's useful.

The back of the PCN says "Details of the Council's policy and approach to challenges can be found at www.plymouth.gov.uk/parkingandbuslanefines" and I certainly cannot find that information here. I'm not sure if there's a statutory duty on public bodies like the Council to tell the truth, but at the very least they are putting incorrect information on the PCN. Is this sort of information just to general to be useful to me here?

thanks,

This is not part of the statutory content of a PCN, so difficult to use as an appeal argument, (although one can try it, of course). I doubt this alone would win at adjudication Essentially the OP is bang-to-rights by not reading a very clear sign, (or getting up too late in the day). The discount beckons here, in my opinion.
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cp8759
post Fri, 19 Oct 2018 - 18:49
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 20:58) *
QUOTE (Teddintgon @ Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 20:21) *
Don't know if this makes any difference at all, but just in case it's useful.

The back of the PCN says "Details of the Council's policy and approach to challenges can be found at www.plymouth.gov.uk/parkingandbuslanefines" and I certainly cannot find that information here. I'm not sure if there's a statutory duty on public bodies like the Council to tell the truth, but at the very least they are putting incorrect information on the PCN. Is this sort of information just to general to be useful to me here?

thanks,

This is not part of the statutory content of a PCN, so difficult to use as an appeal argument, (although one can try it, of course). I doubt this alone would win at adjudication Essentially the OP is bang-to-rights by not reading a very clear sign, (or getting up too late in the day). The discount beckons here, in my opinion.

I agree, the PCN is compliant with the regs.


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Teddintgon
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 11:30
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Does anyone know if this PCN would have to comply with The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007? Or does it just have to meet the requirements of the TMA 2004?
thanks
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Incandescent
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 12:07
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QUOTE (Teddintgon @ Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 12:30) *
Does anyone know if this PCN would have to comply with The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007? Or does it just have to meet the requirements of the TMA 2004?
thanks

If those regulations include a clause mandating certain information on a PCN, then the PCN must comply with that. In fact these regulations do contain a clause stating content that must be included in a Reg 9 PCN. There is a thread on here re Cheshire East where an adjudicator has totally ignored this and delared the PCN "substantially compliant", which is total nonsense and a review is being requested, but it just shows you what we are up against when adjudicators just ignore what the law says. Use of the word "must" means the information defined must be in the PCN, and if not the PCN is a nullity.
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cp8759
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 13:11
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 13:07) *
QUOTE (Teddintgon @ Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 12:30) *
Does anyone know if this PCN would have to comply with The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007? Or does it just have to meet the requirements of the TMA 2004?
thanks

If those regulations include a clause mandating certain information on a PCN, then the PCN must comply with that. In fact these regulations do contain a clause stating content that must be included in a Reg 9 PCN. There is a thread on here re Cheshire East where an adjudicator has totally ignored this and delared the PCN "substantially compliant", which is total nonsense and a review is being requested, but it just shows you what we are up against when adjudicators just ignore what the law says. Use of the word "must" means the information defined must be in the PCN, and if not the PCN is a nullity.

What mandatory information is missing in this case?


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Teddintgon
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 12:33
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Having re-read the back of the PCN, it does have a bit that I had missed about appealing to an adjudicator, so that's out.

That said, the highlighted bit of the regs is only alluded to on the PCN where it talks about representations against the NtO.

"The NtO will contain instructions for doing this."

Which is a bit different to "representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner."

3.—(1) Regulations 4 to 7 have effect where a penalty charge which has become payable under the General Regulations has not been paid and either—

(a)a penalty charge notice has been served by a civil enforcement officer under regulation 9 of the General Regulations, and a notice to owner served by the enforcement authority under regulation 19 of those Regulations; or
(b)a penalty charge notice has been served under regulation 10 of the General Regulations.
(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—

(a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and
(b)that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—
(i)those representations will be considered;
(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.
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cp8759
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 14:00
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The PCN states "If you challenge this PCN but the Council served a NtO anyway, the owner must follow the instructions on the NtO", the tribunal has previously ruled that this sort of language discharges the requirement of regulation 3(2)(b)(ii), which to be honest is one of the first things we check.

Also this isn't a regulation 9 PCN as those relate to car parks, it's a regulation 9A PCN. The General regs have been amended more times than I wish to count, a consolidated version is available from https://www.scribd.com/document/389730267/G...gs-Consolidated


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Teddintgon
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 09:44
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Ah well. Looking more like my only option here is to string it out as long as I can. At least make them work for the money, at best, maybe they'll screw up some other paperwork. Many thanks for your help.
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cp8759
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 11:09
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QUOTE (Teddintgon @ Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 09:44) *
Ah well. Looking more like my only option here is to string it out as long as I can. At least make them work for the money, at best, maybe they'll screw up some other paperwork. Many thanks for your help.

By all means send an informal challenge but don't take it too far, or the charge will be £70 rather than £35.


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Teddintgon
post Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 18:55
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Happy New Year all.

No surprises, informal reps rejected. Frankly my appeal wasn't all that, but I have found that the more paperwork councils have to produce, the more opportunity they have to screw up. Their rejection is below. I've highlighted on bit because I think what they've said is wrong and doesn't accurately convey what's in the regulations. The regulations apply to a PCN, which always comes before an NtO is served, so how could what he's said ever be true? Would an error like that be enough to support an appeal of procedural impropriety on the grounds that the council has an obligation to be accurate and truthful in dealing with the public?
"
Thank you for contacting us.
The Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) was issued to you because your vehicle was seen parked in a residents' or shared use parking place without clearly displaying either a permit or a voucher or a pay and display ticket issued for that place.
I have investigated the circumstances raised in your correspondence and have made the decision to not cancel your notice. The reasons for my decision are set out below, along with the options available to you at this stage.
You have stated in your correspondence that the PCN is not compliant with the requirements of a Regulation 9 PCN. To support your grounds you have quoted The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007 3 (2)(1), where it states - that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected.
Please be advised, the statement you have referred is applicable once the Notice to Owner has been issued however I can confirm that a PCN has been issued to your vehicle and not a Notice to Owner. I must advise you that a Notice to Owner is not issued until 28 days after the PCN has been issued at which point the requirements you have stated will then apply.
At this stage the PCN was issued to your vehicle on 09/10/2018 for being parked in a permit holders only bay without a valid permit, which is not permitted. I can confirm that the contravention is valid and the PCN is fully compliant with all statutory requirements.
Mr E Joscelyne
6 Wiggins Yard
Bridge Street
Godalming
GU7 1HW
Parking, Marine and Highways Policy Service
Plymouth City Council Admail 3313
Plymouth PL9 7BF
T 01752 546220 www.plymouth.gov.uk
If you would like to view the evidence we have in relation to this notice, then please logon to: plymouth.gov.uk/parkingandbuslanefines and follow links to pay/appeal your PCN. When prompted, enter your PCN number and vehicle registration details, the available evidence can then be accessed using the ‘View Evidence’ button towards the bottom of the screen.
Going forward
 The discount payment amount of £35.00 has been reinstated so you can pay and close the case. You have 14 days from the date of this letter being served to do this. This Notice will be taken to have been served on the second working day after the date of posting (shown above) unless you can show that it was not.
 You can pay £70.00 if you pay outside this period. You have 28 days from the date of this Notice being served to do this.
 Alternatively, if you wish to make further representations regarding the PCN you will need to wait for the Notice to Owner (NtO) to be sent to the registered keeper of the vehicle. They will then be able to submit formal representations to the Council.
Act now
If, after 28 days, you have taken no action, we will send the NtO to the registered keeper of the vehicle. They will then have 28 days to pay the charge or submit formal representations against the PCN to the Council.
How to pay
01752 546220 (24 hours)
www.plymouth.gov.uk/parkingandbuslanefines
Plymouth City Council, Admail 3313 Plymouth PL9 7BF
If you require further assistance, please contact us using the above details.
Yours sincerely,
Mr C Harper
Parking Officer
To view our privacy notice, please visit www.plymouth.gov.uk/parkingandtravel.
"

And NtO here:








Any and all help appreciated.
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Incandescent
post Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 19:30
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Time to cough-up, I think.
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cp8759
post Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 21:21
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You might as well cobble together some sort of formal challenge, even if they reject there's a good chance they'll re-offer the discount. No point in paying £70 now if you might get to pay £35 in a few weeks instead.


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Teddintgon
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 08:47
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Thanks for the swift replies.
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