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Lambeth Council Bus Lane PCN Motorcycle / Motorbike
Motorist2018
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 09:09
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Hi all,

Please can anyone help; I have received a total of 6 PCN's for driving my motorcycle on a bus lane on Lambeth Road. The first ticket was issued on 08/11/18 with the offense occurring 10/10/18, by then I had driven on the bus lane another 5 times subsequently receiving the tickets in between those dates.
Dates:
10/10/2018
15/10/2018
16/10/2018
19/10/2018
23/10/2018
07/11/2018

I have tried to challenge each of the ticket on the bases that I didn't travel 20 meters on the bus lane, unfortunately all have been refused. I have since (17/12/18) been trying to email Lambeth to ask if all the PCN can be combined as one penalty charge since I was not aware I was making the offense until after I received the first PCN. They have not replied, instead I have received a response letter for each PCN to pay the full amount otherwise it will go to court.

Any advice?

Thanks,
Attached File(s)
Attached File  2018_1130__Response_LJ10312888_ID_BLANKED.pdf ( 99.82K ) Number of downloads: 82
Attached File  2019_0130_Response_LJ1035838A.pdf ( 275.04K ) Number of downloads: 79
Attached File  2018_1010_PCN_Lambeth_LJ10312888_ID_BLANKED.pdf ( 107.55K ) Number of downloads: 71
 
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post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 09:09
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peterguk
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 09:45
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Let's see the videos.

The council will not combine them into one contravention.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 09:46


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Earl Purple
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 09:49
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Advice:

1. Don't miss deadlines for appeals. In particular if you get a charge certificate you have lost all chance to appeal.
2. If you've missed the discount period you may as well go all the way to tribunal
3. They may still reply on the basis of squashing them down to one PCN, but as there were 4 weeks between them it's likely you received the first before 7 November?

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stamfordman
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 09:52
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We've seen a lot of PCNs in this lane - both bikes and cars. We need videos - we did have a successful case for a biker here. The crossing is a factor I think.
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Motorist2018
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 11:49
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1. Don't miss deadlines for appeals. In particular if you get a charge certificate you have lost all chance to appeal.
I have tried to appeal on the basis of travelling in the bus lane for less than 20m, however they have rejected.

2. If you've missed the discount period you may as well go all the way to tribunal
The discount period is now passed, so i need to go to tribunal. What grounds can I appeal at the tribunal?

3. They may still reply on the basis of squashing them down to one PCN, but as there were 4 weeks between them it's likely you received the first before 7 November?
Yes the first PCN was received 07/11 for the offense occurring on 10/10/2018

How do I download the video? I can only view it on their website.
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cp8759
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 12:05
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QUOTE (Motorist2018 @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 11:49) *
How do I download the video? I can only view it on their website.

See instructions here: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=125502


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Motorist2018
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 14:04
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Thanks for the direction, link to the video:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0iqdktd9mjq44mo/V...eo-for-web?dl=0
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stamfordman
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 14:30
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put video on youtube

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Motorist2018
post Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 08:56
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QUOTE (Motorist2018 @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 11:49) *
1. Don't miss deadlines for appeals. In particular if you get a charge certificate you have lost all chance to appeal.
I have tried to appeal on the basis of travelling in the bus lane for less than 20m, however they have rejected.

2. If you've missed the discount period you may as well go all the way to tribunal
The discount period is now passed, so i need to go to tribunal. What grounds can I appeal at the tribunal?

3. They may still reply on the basis of squashing them down to one PCN, but as there were 4 weeks between them it's likely you received the first before 7 November?
Yes the first PCN was received 07/11 for the offense occurring on 10/10/2018

How do I download the video? I can only view it on their website.


Can anyone advise about going to a tribunal?
1. On what grounds do I have?
2. As there are 6 different PCN, will have have to attend 6 times? e.g. take 6 days off work.
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cp8759
post Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 10:19
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You don't have to attend the tribunal at all, you can just ask them to decide based on the written evidence. Or you can ask for a hearing on a Saturday. All the PCNs can be heard together so there will only be one hearing.

That being said, you need to show us the videos, and you also need to show us all the paperwork. Maybe set up a folder on onedrive or google drive or similar.


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Motorist2018
post Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 14:26
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 10:19) *
You don't have to attend the tribunal at all, you can just ask them to decide based on the written evidence. Or you can ask for a hearing on a Saturday. All the PCNs can be heard together so there will only be one hearing.

That being said, you need to show us the videos, and you also need to show us all the paperwork. Maybe set up a folder on onedrive or google drive or similar.


All the 6 PCN and the responses are the same, would you need to see all 6 or just example of one?

I added the video to the dropbox and sent the link below, is it not view able?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0iqdktd9mjq44mo/V...eo-for-web?dl=0
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 14:38
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No not viewable

we need at the least two dates for each PCN date of contravention and date of notice

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 14:39


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cp8759
post Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 16:27
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QUOTE (Motorist2018 @ Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 14:26) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 10:19) *
You don't have to attend the tribunal at all, you can just ask them to decide based on the written evidence. Or you can ask for a hearing on a Saturday. All the PCNs can be heard together so there will only be one hearing.

That being said, you need to show us the videos, and you also need to show us all the paperwork. Maybe set up a folder on onedrive or google drive or similar.


All the 6 PCN and the responses are the same, would you need to see all 6 or just example of one?

I added the video to the dropbox and sent the link below, is it not view able?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0iqdktd9mjq44mo/V...eo-for-web?dl=0

I suggest you create six dropbox folders, and put the video and paperwork for each PCN in teach folder. Seemingly trivial differences in the wording can make a difference and given we don't have much to go on, it will be helpful to see the videos, as depending on your exact trajectory on each occasion there may or may not be grounds to appeal.


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Motorist2018
post Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 09:57
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 16:27) *
QUOTE (Motorist2018 @ Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 14:26) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 10:19) *
You don't have to attend the tribunal at all, you can just ask them to decide based on the written evidence. Or you can ask for a hearing on a Saturday. All the PCNs can be heard together so there will only be one hearing.

That being said, you need to show us the videos, and you also need to show us all the paperwork. Maybe set up a folder on onedrive or google drive or similar.


All the 6 PCN and the responses are the same, would you need to see all 6 or just example of one?

I added the video to the dropbox and sent the link below, is it not view able?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0iqdktd9mjq44mo/V...eo-for-web?dl=0

I suggest you create six dropbox folders, and put the video and paperwork for each PCN in teach folder. Seemingly trivial differences in the wording can make a difference and given we don't have much to go on, it will be helpful to see the videos, as depending on your exact trajectory on each occasion there may or may not be grounds to appeal.


As adviced, I have added all the 6 PCN onto my dropbox including the video (NOTE: PCN LJ1035838A has no video).

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/v43p0juvmuy62fi/...WCWAhKiXIa?dl=0
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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 12:15
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Here's my initial thoughts:

LJ1033150A: The rejection states they are "unable to cancel", this is an unlawful fettering of discretion
LJ1035838A: The rejection states they are "unable to cancel", this is an unlawful fettering of discretion
LJ10312888: The rejection dated 29 Jan says they are "unable to cancel as they are valid", again this is wrong as a council is always entitled to cancel a PCN even where it is valid
LJ10334847: The rejection says they are "unable to cancel" but this is not so clear-cut because they qualify this by saying "from the circumstances you described"
LJ10344895: The rejection says they are "unable to cancel" but this is not so clear-cut because they qualify this by saying "from the circumstances you described"
LJ0395331: No obvious flaws in the response.

De minimis:

I recon you travelled in the bus lane for well over 20 metres, at least 25-30 on each occasion, it would have been 20 metres or less if you'd entered the bus lane at or beyond the end of the layby outside the Novotel:



However, the point should still be made, because I suspect the council are operating on the basis that the bus lane continues through the pedestrian zig-zags, which is not the case (see Neville Stanley v London Borough of Lambeth (case reference 2170474513)).

As far as I can tell, this is the current statue of your PCNs:

LJ1033150A: Enforcement notice dated 28 January 2019, must be responded to by 24 February.
LJ1035838A: Enforcement notice dated 30 January 2019, must be responded to by 26 February.
LJ10312888: No enforcement notice, please confirm.
LJ10334847: Enforcement notice dated 28 January 2019, must be responded to by 24 February.
LJ10344895: Enforcement notice dated 29 January 2019, must be responded to by 25 February.
LJ10395331: No enforcement notice, please confirm.

Also, upload all the pages of at least one enforcement notice, as there might be a flaw that makes it invalid.


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Motorist2018
post Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 15:38
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 12:15) *
Here's my initial thoughts:

LJ1033150A: The rejection states they are "unable to cancel", this is an unlawful fettering of discretion
LJ1035838A: The rejection states they are "unable to cancel", this is an unlawful fettering of discretion
LJ10312888: The rejection dated 29 Jan says they are "unable to cancel as they are valid", again this is wrong as a council is always entitled to cancel a PCN even where it is valid
LJ10334847: The rejection says they are "unable to cancel" but this is not so clear-cut because they qualify this by saying "from the circumstances you described"
LJ10344895: The rejection says they are "unable to cancel" but this is not so clear-cut because they qualify this by saying "from the circumstances you described"
LJ0395331: No obvious flaws in the response.

De minimis:

I recon you travelled in the bus lane for well over 20 metres, at least 25-30 on each occasion, it would have been 20 metres or less if you'd entered the bus lane at or beyond the end of the layby outside the Novotel:



However, the point should still be made, because I suspect the council are operating on the basis that the bus lane continues through the pedestrian zig-zags, which is not the case (see Neville Stanley v London Borough of Lambeth (case reference 2170474513)).

As far as I can tell, this is the current statue of your PCNs:

LJ1033150A: Enforcement notice dated 28 January 2019, must be responded to by 24 February.
LJ1035838A: Enforcement notice dated 30 January 2019, must be responded to by 26 February.
LJ10312888: No enforcement notice, please confirm.
LJ10334847: Enforcement notice dated 28 January 2019, must be responded to by 24 February.
LJ10344895: Enforcement notice dated 29 January 2019, must be responded to by 25 February.
LJ10395331: No enforcement notice, please confirm.

Also, upload all the pages of at least one enforcement notice, as there might be a flaw that makes it invalid.


Thank you for your comments. Can I clarify your advice:

LJ1033150A: The rejection states they are "unable to cancel", this is an unlawful fettering of discretion
LJ1035838A: The rejection states they are "unable to cancel", this is an unlawful fettering of discretion

Can I challenge with "this is an unlawful fettering of discretion"?

LJ10312888: The rejection dated 29 Jan says they are "unable to cancel as they are valid", again this is wrong as a council is always entitled to cancel a PCN even where it is valid
LJ10334847: The rejection says they are "unable to cancel" but this is not so clear-cut because they qualify this by saying "from the circumstances you described"
LJ10344895: The rejection says they are "unable to cancel" but this is not so clear-cut because they qualify this by saying "from the circumstances you described"

Can this be challenged? If so, on what ground?

LJ0395331: No obvious flaws in the response.

Should I pay the fine and not challenge this PCN?




QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 12:15) *
Here's my initial thoughts:

LJ1033150A: The rejection states they are "unable to cancel", this is an unlawful fettering of discretion
LJ1035838A: The rejection states they are "unable to cancel", this is an unlawful fettering of discretion
LJ10312888: The rejection dated 29 Jan says they are "unable to cancel as they are valid", again this is wrong as a council is always entitled to cancel a PCN even where it is valid
LJ10334847: The rejection says they are "unable to cancel" but this is not so clear-cut because they qualify this by saying "from the circumstances you described"
LJ10344895: The rejection says they are "unable to cancel" but this is not so clear-cut because they qualify this by saying "from the circumstances you described"
LJ0395331: No obvious flaws in the response.

De minimis:

I recon you travelled in the bus lane for well over 20 metres, at least 25-30 on each occasion, it would have been 20 metres or less if you'd entered the bus lane at or beyond the end of the layby outside the Novotel:



However, the point should still be made, because I suspect the council are operating on the basis that the bus lane continues through the pedestrian zig-zags, which is not the case (see Neville Stanley v London Borough of Lambeth (case reference 2170474513)).

As far as I can tell, this is the current statue of your PCNs:

LJ1033150A: Enforcement notice dated 28 January 2019, must be responded to by 24 February.
LJ1035838A: Enforcement notice dated 30 January 2019, must be responded to by 26 February.
LJ10312888: No enforcement notice, please confirm.
LJ10334847: Enforcement notice dated 28 January 2019, must be responded to by 24 February.
LJ10344895: Enforcement notice dated 29 January 2019, must be responded to by 25 February.
LJ10395331: No enforcement notice, please confirm.

Also, upload all the pages of at least one enforcement notice, as there might be a flaw that makes it invalid.


LJ10312888: No enforcement notice, please confirm.

I have loaded all the documents I have received


Also, upload all the pages of at least one enforcement notice, as there might be a flaw that makes it invalid.

Please look the folder LJ10344895, the PCN has both pages of the original PCN.
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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 19:04
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To clarify, at this point you should not pay or challenge anything, let's see if other members comment. I think in principle you can challenge all the "unable to cancel" rejection, plus you can challenge them all on the basis of de-minimis, however you should not attempt this on your own. We will draft your challenge for you once we've got all the facts.

I've looked at the folder for LJ10344895 which as you say has both sides of the PCN, this is not what I'm looking for. I need to see all the pages of the document called Enforcement Notice.


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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 19:14
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Just had a quick look, some could be argued as being a continuous or continuing contravention I am wary of the argument re the zig zags as the OP was in the bus lane well in advance of them


The fettered discretion is the strongest IMO


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Motorist2018
post Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 08:47
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 19:04) *
To clarify, at this point you should not pay or challenge anything, let's see if other members comment. I think in principle you can challenge all the "unable to cancel" rejection, plus you can challenge them all on the basis of de-minimis, however you should not attempt this on your own. We will draft your challenge for you once we've got all the facts.

I've looked at the folder for LJ10344895 which as you say has both sides of the PCN, this is not what I'm looking for. I need to see all the pages of the document called Enforcement Notice.


Ok thank you, I'll hold fire until you advice.

I have loaded all the pages of the PCNs with Enforcement notice, each Enforcement Notice document has 4 pages, is there another page you are looking for?

LJ1033150A: Enforcement notice dated 28 January 2019, must be responded to by 24 February.
LJ1035838A: Enforcement notice dated 30 January 2019, must be responded to by 26 February.
LJ10334847: Enforcement notice dated 28 January 2019, must be responded to by 24 February.
LJ10344895: Enforcement notice dated 29 January 2019, must be responded to by 25 February.

LJ10312888: No enforcement notice, please confirm. HAVE NOT RECEIVE YET
LJ10395331: No enforcement notice, please confirm. HAVE NOT RECEIVE YET
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cp8759
post Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 11:42
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Right I've looked at the enforcement notice, I think we can say the enforcement notice is flawed. There is only one period mentioned on the notice, i.e. the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice. However under the legislation, the period to make representations is 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice, as the notice is deemed served two days after its issued, they're effectively cutting short the period for representations by two days.

Ideally I'd prefer to respond to all the enforcement notices in a single combined response, but we can't risk missing the deadlines. Bump on Monday and I'll draft a formal representation for you, at the moment I'm minded to go with the following:

1) Continuous contravention, you received six PCNs before the first one was ever served on you, so you had no chance to adjust your driving behaviour
2) de-minimis
2) Fettered discretion in the informal rejections
4) The enforcement notice gives the wrong 28 day period for representations


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