Lambeth Council Bus Lane PCN Motorcycle / Motorbike |
Lambeth Council Bus Lane PCN Motorcycle / Motorbike |
Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 09:09
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 21 Sep 2018 Member No.: 99,982 |
Hi all,
Please can anyone help; I have received a total of 6 PCN's for driving my motorcycle on a bus lane on Lambeth Road. The first ticket was issued on 08/11/18 with the offense occurring 10/10/18, by then I had driven on the bus lane another 5 times subsequently receiving the tickets in between those dates. Dates: 10/10/2018 15/10/2018 16/10/2018 19/10/2018 23/10/2018 07/11/2018 I have tried to challenge each of the ticket on the bases that I didn't travel 20 meters on the bus lane, unfortunately all have been refused. I have since (17/12/18) been trying to email Lambeth to ask if all the PCN can be combined as one penalty charge since I was not aware I was making the offense until after I received the first PCN. They have not replied, instead I have received a response letter for each PCN to pay the full amount otherwise it will go to court. Any advice? Thanks,
Attached File(s)
2018_1130__Response_LJ10312888_ID_BLANKED.pdf ( 99.82K )
Number of downloads: 82
2019_0130_Response_LJ1035838A.pdf ( 275.04K ) Number of downloads: 79 2018_1010_PCN_Lambeth_LJ10312888_ID_BLANKED.pdf ( 107.55K ) Number of downloads: 71 |
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Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 09:09
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Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 09:45
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,735 Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Member No.: 14,720 |
Let's see the videos.
The council will not combine them into one contravention. This post has been edited by peterguk: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 09:46 -------------------- |
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Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 09:49
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 972 Joined: 25 Jul 2010 Member No.: 39,245 |
Advice:
1. Don't miss deadlines for appeals. In particular if you get a charge certificate you have lost all chance to appeal. 2. If you've missed the discount period you may as well go all the way to tribunal 3. They may still reply on the basis of squashing them down to one PCN, but as there were 4 weeks between them it's likely you received the first before 7 November? |
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Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 09:52
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
We've seen a lot of PCNs in this lane - both bikes and cars. We need videos - we did have a successful case for a biker here. The crossing is a factor I think.
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Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 11:49
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 21 Sep 2018 Member No.: 99,982 |
1. Don't miss deadlines for appeals. In particular if you get a charge certificate you have lost all chance to appeal.
I have tried to appeal on the basis of travelling in the bus lane for less than 20m, however they have rejected. 2. If you've missed the discount period you may as well go all the way to tribunal The discount period is now passed, so i need to go to tribunal. What grounds can I appeal at the tribunal? 3. They may still reply on the basis of squashing them down to one PCN, but as there were 4 weeks between them it's likely you received the first before 7 November? Yes the first PCN was received 07/11 for the offense occurring on 10/10/2018 How do I download the video? I can only view it on their website. |
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Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 12:05
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
How do I download the video? I can only view it on their website. See instructions here: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=125502 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 14:04
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 21 Sep 2018 Member No.: 99,982 |
Thanks for the direction, link to the video:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0iqdktd9mjq44mo/V...eo-for-web?dl=0 |
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Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 14:30
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
put video on youtube
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Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 08:56
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 21 Sep 2018 Member No.: 99,982 |
1. Don't miss deadlines for appeals. In particular if you get a charge certificate you have lost all chance to appeal. I have tried to appeal on the basis of travelling in the bus lane for less than 20m, however they have rejected. 2. If you've missed the discount period you may as well go all the way to tribunal The discount period is now passed, so i need to go to tribunal. What grounds can I appeal at the tribunal? 3. They may still reply on the basis of squashing them down to one PCN, but as there were 4 weeks between them it's likely you received the first before 7 November? Yes the first PCN was received 07/11 for the offense occurring on 10/10/2018 How do I download the video? I can only view it on their website. Can anyone advise about going to a tribunal? 1. On what grounds do I have? 2. As there are 6 different PCN, will have have to attend 6 times? e.g. take 6 days off work. |
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Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 10:19
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
You don't have to attend the tribunal at all, you can just ask them to decide based on the written evidence. Or you can ask for a hearing on a Saturday. All the PCNs can be heard together so there will only be one hearing.
That being said, you need to show us the videos, and you also need to show us all the paperwork. Maybe set up a folder on onedrive or google drive or similar. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 14:26
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 21 Sep 2018 Member No.: 99,982 |
You don't have to attend the tribunal at all, you can just ask them to decide based on the written evidence. Or you can ask for a hearing on a Saturday. All the PCNs can be heard together so there will only be one hearing. That being said, you need to show us the videos, and you also need to show us all the paperwork. Maybe set up a folder on onedrive or google drive or similar. All the 6 PCN and the responses are the same, would you need to see all 6 or just example of one? I added the video to the dropbox and sent the link below, is it not view able? https://www.dropbox.com/s/0iqdktd9mjq44mo/V...eo-for-web?dl=0 |
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Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 14:38
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
No not viewable
we need at the least two dates for each PCN date of contravention and date of notice This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 14:39 -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 16:27
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
You don't have to attend the tribunal at all, you can just ask them to decide based on the written evidence. Or you can ask for a hearing on a Saturday. All the PCNs can be heard together so there will only be one hearing. That being said, you need to show us the videos, and you also need to show us all the paperwork. Maybe set up a folder on onedrive or google drive or similar. All the 6 PCN and the responses are the same, would you need to see all 6 or just example of one? I added the video to the dropbox and sent the link below, is it not view able? https://www.dropbox.com/s/0iqdktd9mjq44mo/V...eo-for-web?dl=0 I suggest you create six dropbox folders, and put the video and paperwork for each PCN in teach folder. Seemingly trivial differences in the wording can make a difference and given we don't have much to go on, it will be helpful to see the videos, as depending on your exact trajectory on each occasion there may or may not be grounds to appeal. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 09:57
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 21 Sep 2018 Member No.: 99,982 |
You don't have to attend the tribunal at all, you can just ask them to decide based on the written evidence. Or you can ask for a hearing on a Saturday. All the PCNs can be heard together so there will only be one hearing. That being said, you need to show us the videos, and you also need to show us all the paperwork. Maybe set up a folder on onedrive or google drive or similar. All the 6 PCN and the responses are the same, would you need to see all 6 or just example of one? I added the video to the dropbox and sent the link below, is it not view able? https://www.dropbox.com/s/0iqdktd9mjq44mo/V...eo-for-web?dl=0 I suggest you create six dropbox folders, and put the video and paperwork for each PCN in teach folder. Seemingly trivial differences in the wording can make a difference and given we don't have much to go on, it will be helpful to see the videos, as depending on your exact trajectory on each occasion there may or may not be grounds to appeal. As adviced, I have added all the 6 PCN onto my dropbox including the video (NOTE: PCN LJ1035838A has no video). https://www.dropbox.com/sh/v43p0juvmuy62fi/...WCWAhKiXIa?dl=0 |
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Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 12:15
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Here's my initial thoughts:
LJ1033150A: The rejection states they are "unable to cancel", this is an unlawful fettering of discretion LJ1035838A: The rejection states they are "unable to cancel", this is an unlawful fettering of discretion LJ10312888: The rejection dated 29 Jan says they are "unable to cancel as they are valid", again this is wrong as a council is always entitled to cancel a PCN even where it is valid LJ10334847: The rejection says they are "unable to cancel" but this is not so clear-cut because they qualify this by saying "from the circumstances you described" LJ10344895: The rejection says they are "unable to cancel" but this is not so clear-cut because they qualify this by saying "from the circumstances you described" LJ0395331: No obvious flaws in the response. De minimis: I recon you travelled in the bus lane for well over 20 metres, at least 25-30 on each occasion, it would have been 20 metres or less if you'd entered the bus lane at or beyond the end of the layby outside the Novotel: However, the point should still be made, because I suspect the council are operating on the basis that the bus lane continues through the pedestrian zig-zags, which is not the case (see Neville Stanley v London Borough of Lambeth (case reference 2170474513)). As far as I can tell, this is the current statue of your PCNs: LJ1033150A: Enforcement notice dated 28 January 2019, must be responded to by 24 February. LJ1035838A: Enforcement notice dated 30 January 2019, must be responded to by 26 February. LJ10312888: No enforcement notice, please confirm. LJ10334847: Enforcement notice dated 28 January 2019, must be responded to by 24 February. LJ10344895: Enforcement notice dated 29 January 2019, must be responded to by 25 February. LJ10395331: No enforcement notice, please confirm. Also, upload all the pages of at least one enforcement notice, as there might be a flaw that makes it invalid. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 15:38
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 21 Sep 2018 Member No.: 99,982 |
Here's my initial thoughts: LJ1033150A: The rejection states they are "unable to cancel", this is an unlawful fettering of discretion LJ1035838A: The rejection states they are "unable to cancel", this is an unlawful fettering of discretion LJ10312888: The rejection dated 29 Jan says they are "unable to cancel as they are valid", again this is wrong as a council is always entitled to cancel a PCN even where it is valid LJ10334847: The rejection says they are "unable to cancel" but this is not so clear-cut because they qualify this by saying "from the circumstances you described" LJ10344895: The rejection says they are "unable to cancel" but this is not so clear-cut because they qualify this by saying "from the circumstances you described" LJ0395331: No obvious flaws in the response. De minimis: I recon you travelled in the bus lane for well over 20 metres, at least 25-30 on each occasion, it would have been 20 metres or less if you'd entered the bus lane at or beyond the end of the layby outside the Novotel: However, the point should still be made, because I suspect the council are operating on the basis that the bus lane continues through the pedestrian zig-zags, which is not the case (see Neville Stanley v London Borough of Lambeth (case reference 2170474513)). As far as I can tell, this is the current statue of your PCNs: LJ1033150A: Enforcement notice dated 28 January 2019, must be responded to by 24 February. LJ1035838A: Enforcement notice dated 30 January 2019, must be responded to by 26 February. LJ10312888: No enforcement notice, please confirm. LJ10334847: Enforcement notice dated 28 January 2019, must be responded to by 24 February. LJ10344895: Enforcement notice dated 29 January 2019, must be responded to by 25 February. LJ10395331: No enforcement notice, please confirm. Also, upload all the pages of at least one enforcement notice, as there might be a flaw that makes it invalid. Thank you for your comments. Can I clarify your advice: LJ1033150A: The rejection states they are "unable to cancel", this is an unlawful fettering of discretion LJ1035838A: The rejection states they are "unable to cancel", this is an unlawful fettering of discretion Can I challenge with "this is an unlawful fettering of discretion"? LJ10312888: The rejection dated 29 Jan says they are "unable to cancel as they are valid", again this is wrong as a council is always entitled to cancel a PCN even where it is valid LJ10334847: The rejection says they are "unable to cancel" but this is not so clear-cut because they qualify this by saying "from the circumstances you described" LJ10344895: The rejection says they are "unable to cancel" but this is not so clear-cut because they qualify this by saying "from the circumstances you described" Can this be challenged? If so, on what ground? LJ0395331: No obvious flaws in the response. Should I pay the fine and not challenge this PCN? Here's my initial thoughts: LJ1033150A: The rejection states they are "unable to cancel", this is an unlawful fettering of discretion LJ1035838A: The rejection states they are "unable to cancel", this is an unlawful fettering of discretion LJ10312888: The rejection dated 29 Jan says they are "unable to cancel as they are valid", again this is wrong as a council is always entitled to cancel a PCN even where it is valid LJ10334847: The rejection says they are "unable to cancel" but this is not so clear-cut because they qualify this by saying "from the circumstances you described" LJ10344895: The rejection says they are "unable to cancel" but this is not so clear-cut because they qualify this by saying "from the circumstances you described" LJ0395331: No obvious flaws in the response. De minimis: I recon you travelled in the bus lane for well over 20 metres, at least 25-30 on each occasion, it would have been 20 metres or less if you'd entered the bus lane at or beyond the end of the layby outside the Novotel: However, the point should still be made, because I suspect the council are operating on the basis that the bus lane continues through the pedestrian zig-zags, which is not the case (see Neville Stanley v London Borough of Lambeth (case reference 2170474513)). As far as I can tell, this is the current statue of your PCNs: LJ1033150A: Enforcement notice dated 28 January 2019, must be responded to by 24 February. LJ1035838A: Enforcement notice dated 30 January 2019, must be responded to by 26 February. LJ10312888: No enforcement notice, please confirm. LJ10334847: Enforcement notice dated 28 January 2019, must be responded to by 24 February. LJ10344895: Enforcement notice dated 29 January 2019, must be responded to by 25 February. LJ10395331: No enforcement notice, please confirm. Also, upload all the pages of at least one enforcement notice, as there might be a flaw that makes it invalid. LJ10312888: No enforcement notice, please confirm. I have loaded all the documents I have received Also, upload all the pages of at least one enforcement notice, as there might be a flaw that makes it invalid. Please look the folder LJ10344895, the PCN has both pages of the original PCN. |
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Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 19:04
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
To clarify, at this point you should not pay or challenge anything, let's see if other members comment. I think in principle you can challenge all the "unable to cancel" rejection, plus you can challenge them all on the basis of de-minimis, however you should not attempt this on your own. We will draft your challenge for you once we've got all the facts.
I've looked at the folder for LJ10344895 which as you say has both sides of the PCN, this is not what I'm looking for. I need to see all the pages of the document called Enforcement Notice. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 19:14
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Just had a quick look, some could be argued as being a continuous or continuing contravention I am wary of the argument re the zig zags as the OP was in the bus lane well in advance of them
The fettered discretion is the strongest IMO -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 08:47
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 21 Sep 2018 Member No.: 99,982 |
To clarify, at this point you should not pay or challenge anything, let's see if other members comment. I think in principle you can challenge all the "unable to cancel" rejection, plus you can challenge them all on the basis of de-minimis, however you should not attempt this on your own. We will draft your challenge for you once we've got all the facts. I've looked at the folder for LJ10344895 which as you say has both sides of the PCN, this is not what I'm looking for. I need to see all the pages of the document called Enforcement Notice. Ok thank you, I'll hold fire until you advice. I have loaded all the pages of the PCNs with Enforcement notice, each Enforcement Notice document has 4 pages, is there another page you are looking for? LJ1033150A: Enforcement notice dated 28 January 2019, must be responded to by 24 February. LJ1035838A: Enforcement notice dated 30 January 2019, must be responded to by 26 February. LJ10334847: Enforcement notice dated 28 January 2019, must be responded to by 24 February. LJ10344895: Enforcement notice dated 29 January 2019, must be responded to by 25 February. LJ10312888: No enforcement notice, please confirm. HAVE NOT RECEIVE YET LJ10395331: No enforcement notice, please confirm. HAVE NOT RECEIVE YET |
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Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 11:42
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Right I've looked at the enforcement notice, I think we can say the enforcement notice is flawed. There is only one period mentioned on the notice, i.e. the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice. However under the legislation, the period to make representations is 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice, as the notice is deemed served two days after its issued, they're effectively cutting short the period for representations by two days.
Ideally I'd prefer to respond to all the enforcement notices in a single combined response, but we can't risk missing the deadlines. Bump on Monday and I'll draft a formal representation for you, at the moment I'm minded to go with the following: 1) Continuous contravention, you received six PCNs before the first one was ever served on you, so you had no chance to adjust your driving behaviour 2) de-minimis 2) Fettered discretion in the informal rejections 4) The enforcement notice gives the wrong 28 day period for representations -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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