Newham - Car towed away for not being fully within the lines. Options

[Ricotta]

Hi everyone,
Last night I drove back from the airport to the place where I live - a converted warehouse in an industrial estate that has recently had road markings added, consisting of double yellow lines and regular non-restricted parking spaces. As there was an event going on, the area was packed, and I was forced to park behind a car which had left an excessive gap between them and car in front, which resulted in roughly 1/5th of my car having to be over the double yellow lines. Those yellow lines do not serve any specific purpose, and indeed cars used to park over them all the time before they redid the road layout.
So, as the title suggests, I found out this morning that my car (which I was planning to move) had been towed away earlier. I was working today so I will head to the pound tomorrow morning and provide the PCN details; so far the Trace website lists the contravention as "Parked in a restricted street".
I expect to be given this form, and any help to draft an appeal would be appreciated.

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[Wretched Rectum]

I fear your fax has somehow gone astray. DId you keep any records ?

Newham are an absolutely disgusting council with no integrity or moral framework at all. You need to urgently check the status of your PCN and reps as a bailiff may be creeping around as i write.

That wont happen this is a removal, but the OP has lost the ability to take the matter to tribunal, Unless he can show that he sent reps in one of the prescribed manners

Odd isnt it, that a person can make formal representations, never get a reply and that person has no way of setting the clock back to resolve the problem. I recall EDW exposed this flaw with removals. The same applies if a notice of rejection is received and an appeal to the tribunal is made but no response or decision from the tribunal is received. With straightforward PCN cases the clock can be set back by making a witness statement but with removals no witness statement opportunity exists because no order for recovery will ever be posted due to all charges being paid on recovery. Does seem very unjust and somewhat skewed.

This post has been edited by Wretched Rectum: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 - 21:42

[Neil B]

Then, imho, the tribunal should agree to hear the case.
We're yet to hear back from the OP if there is a transmission record.

[PASTMYBEST]

Then, imho, the tribunal should agree to hear the case.
We're yet to hear back from the OP if there is a transmission record.

or if fax is an acceptable method for reps if the answer to both is yes I think the tribunal would be inclined to hear the case

[Ricotta]

I fear your fax has somehow gone astray. DId you keep any records ?

Newham are an absolutely disgusting council with no integrity or moral framework at all. You need to urgently check the status of your PCN and reps as a bailiff may be creeping around as i write.

That wont happen this is a removal, but the OP has lost the ability to take the matter to tribunal, Unless he can show that he sent reps in one of the prescribed manners

I have proof from the online service I used that the fax was successfully delivered. The form I was given mentions fax as a way of sending my representations. I will call Newham on Monday and demand a refund. If they refuse, which I expect they will, I might need your help to take these matters to tribunal and make my case.

This post has been edited by Ricotta: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 - 22:27

[Neil B]

NO, you will not call Newham for that purpose. Everything in writing ---- but wait until Monday
for others' views.

[PASTMYBEST]

NO, you will not call Newham for that purpose. Everything in writing ---- but wait until Monday
for others' views.

Access to the tribunal. E mail the council and demand a rejection or contact the tribunal explain the situation and ask that they here the case

Reading the schedule of the appeals regs I think I would make an appeal with full submissions, but starting and highlighting that the authority have not responded.

reg 3(4) (4) If a notice of appeal is received by the proper officer and he considers that it may not be in accordance with paragraph 2, he shall refer the issue of its validity to an adjudicator. would require the proper officer to refer to an adjudicator, who I would hope would find an appeal valid

[Neil B]

Access to the tribunal. E mail the council and demand a rejection or contact the tribunal explain the situation and ask that they here the case

I think, at just 3 days over, it's a little too hasty.
Something in the post from Newham, with a beneficial date, may yet deliver a win on a plate.

I have proof from the online service I used that the fax was successfully delivered.

Let's have a gander then.

[PASTMYBEST]

Access to the tribunal. E mail the council and demand a rejection or contact the tribunal explain the situation and ask that they here the case

I think, at just 3 days over, it's a little too hasty.
Something in the post from Newham, with a beneficial date, may yet deliver a win on a plate.

I have proof from the online service I used that the fax was successfully delivered.

Let's have a gander then.

Better check the v5c is correct as well

[Wretched Rectum]

NO, you will not call Newham for that purpose. Everything in writing ---- but wait until Monday
for others' views.

Access to the tribunal. E mail the council and demand a rejection or contact the tribunal explain the situation and ask that they here the case

Reading the schedule of the appeals regs I think I would make an appeal with full submissions, but starting and highlighting that the authority have not responded.

reg 3(4) (4) If a notice of appeal is received by the proper officer and he considers that it may not be in accordance with paragraph 2, he shall refer the issue of its validity to an adjudicator. would require the proper officer to refer to an adjudicator, who I would hope would find an appeal valid

Likely problem is this

Initiating an appeal

2.—(1) An appeal shall be made by delivering a notice of appeal to the proper officer.

Definition of appeal is “appeal” means an appeal under regulation 7(1), 10(1) or 13(1);

which means a decision on formal representations must have been given. The regs don't make allowance for an appeal where no notice of rejection of formal reps has been issued. EDW had a point. Removals don't fit neatly with the TMA 2004.

This post has been edited by Wretched Rectum: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 - 08:59

[Ricotta]

Let's have a gander then.

Here's a link to the confirmation page: https://www.gotfreefax.com/status.aspx/FGHBAWSYKL
I also have an e-mail from the fax service to further confirm that the fax was successfully delivered.

The London Tribunal website has this to say about the 56 days period:

The enforcement authority must, before the end of 56 days beginning with the date on which they receive representations:

- Consider representations made in time;

- Decide whether to accept or reject them;

- Serve on the person who made the representations:

- A Notice of Acceptance if they accept them
- A Notice of Rejection and a Notice of Appeal form if they do not accept them
- If they have accepted the representations, refund all monies due as a result.

If the enforcement authority fails to respond within 56 days they will be deemed to have accepted the grounds in question and must refund any sums due.

Source: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/unde...rcement-process

This post has been edited by Ricotta: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 - 23:58

[Neil B]

And I'll say it again ------ SLOW DOWN.

Something in the post from Newham, with a beneficial date, may yet deliver a win on a plate.

We've seen it before.

And why jump the gun anyway?

[Ricotta]

Absolutely, I will wait until we've drafted something sound before contacting the council

[cp8759]

I recall EDW exposed this flaw with removals.

There is no flaw, the regulations cater for this at regulation 12 here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...ulation/12/made

(7) Where an authority fails to comply with paragraph (2) before the end of the period of 56 days mentioned there it shall be treated as having accepted the representations and as having served notice to that effect under paragraph (2)(b) and paragraph (3) shall apply accordingly.

We don't need the tribunal, as the council is deemed to have accepted the representations that have been made, therefore reg 12(3) applies ("refund any sums that..."). It's simply a question of enforcing the refund (I can already sense hcandersen's reaction but we'll have to live with that).

Regulation 15(3) here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...ulation/15/made provides that:

(3) Any amount which is payable—

(a) under an adjudicator’s adjudication;
(b) by virtue of any other provision of these Regulations which requires an enforcement authority to refund any sum,

shall, if a county court so orders, be recoverable by the person to whom the amount is payable as if it were payable under a county court order.

So the correct approach is to apply to the County Court for an order under regulation 15(3) for the recovery of the outstanding refund, rather than trying to get the tribunal to accept an appeal over which the regulations give it no role or jurisdiction. Of course, in the first instance a letter before action would need to be sent to the council's legal department - who knows they might see sense. Please nobody give me this nonsense than an N244 fee is not refundable, I've recovered N244 fees myself in the past and as we're not dealing with TEC, we don't need to worry about their mickey mouse understanding of the Civil Procedure Rules (Note: the LBA must put the council on notice as to the fees in order to make them recoverable).

Before we get to any of that, it makes sense to try and persuade the council to see sense. But if push comes to shove, this is the route clearly envisaged by the legislation.

[hcandersen]

@cp.. (I can already sense hcandersen's reaction but we'll have to live with that).


I doubt it!

Talks of appealing to the adjudicator are out of order: you need a NOR to appeal and the OP doesn't have one.

So the tribunal has no procedural role at this stage.

The OP is left with extra-procedural options, the last of which should be to engage the County Court - talk a out sledgehammer to crack a nut. For most people even the CPE process and tribunals are frightening enough.

But before I recommend what to do, I want to SEE the pound docs and where fax is permissible and the fax number to be used and a copy of the reps sent.

OP, why do you think we should take this just on your say-so? And if the OP is wrong then County Court could be embarrassing and incur costs a tad more than that of a first-class stamp.

The legal position is clear IF reps were made as required, but let's get over this IF hurdle first.

[Neil B]

Maybe a daft question but -- Ricotta. Did you put your full name and address on the reps?

[hcandersen]

Neil B, you've spoiled it 😃

[Neil B]

NO, you will not call Newham for that purpose. Everything in writing ---- but wait until Monday
for others' views.

Perhaps you should call them after all?
If they have rejected then you don't want to miss a deadline to appeal to tribunal.

[Ricotta]

This is a copy of the form where it explicitly mentions fax as one of the two acceptable ways to send representations:


And this is the fax I sent (name and address are accurate and up to date):

[cp8759]

The OP is left with extra-procedural options, the last of which should be to engage the County Court - talk a out sledgehammer to crack a nut. For most people even the CPE process and tribunals are frightening enough.

It's hardly extra-procedural, it's the procedure the regulations envisage. It might be extra-hcandersen, but that's a different matter

Nail makes a good point, you should call the council and find out if a NoR has been issued. If it's simply been lost in the post, the correct route is to appeal to the tribunal so it's best to establish what's what before doing anything further.

[Ricotta]

So I have spoken to Newham, they confirmed that they have not sent a notice of rejection. Should I explain my circumstances and request a refund in writing? Which department should it be addressed to?