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Barking and Dagenham notice to owner, but no PCN received
Swilxert
post Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 12:41
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Hi.
On the 10th October we were served a PCN for parking outside our house (permit controlled zone) for not displaying a valid resident's permit. I wasn't aware that our permit had expired, the council clearly states on their website that they will notify you 30 days before the permit expires, we didn't receive any notification. I appealed and the PCN was cancelled.

Before the weekend I received a Notice To Owner, not for the PCN mentioned above, but for a PCN served on the 9th October, for the same alleged parking contravention as above. Thing is, we weren't served a PCN on the 9th as far as I am aware as nothing was places on the car or sent by post. I checked the evidence online and there are no photos to prove the alleged parking contravention or a PCN being placed on the car. (The one for the 10th that I appealed does have photos of the contravention and PCN being issued).

I intend to make a representation, because were we served the PCN on the 9th we wouldn't have parked on road on the 10th to risk getting served another PCN! And we would've challenged the PCN on the 9th (had we received it) on the same grounds as we successfully did the PCN served on the 10th.

Thing is I'm not entirely sure which representation reason to challenge under. Below are the reasons I have from the Barking and Dagenham online Formal Representation Form:

A - The alleged Contravention did not occur
B I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of contravention
- I had sold the vehicle before that date
- I had bought the vehicle after that date
- I have never owned that vehicle
C - The vehicle was taken without my consent
D - We are a hire firm and have supplied details
E - The Penalty Charge exceeds the relevant amount
F - There has been a procedural impropriety by the Enforcement Authority
G - The traffic order contravened is invalid
H - The Notice should not have been served because the Penalty Charge had already been paid
I - Other

Are you able to advice the best course of action?
Many thanks in advance!

I have attached the NTO.









Back of the PCN served on the 10th:




PCN cancellation letter



This post has been edited by Swilxert: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 14:53
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post Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 12:41
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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 13:57
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Did you display the expired permit and how long had it been expired? You may have been given the wrong contravention and a higher penalty.

Wait for others to respond but it would seem illogical that the Council would cancel one and pursue the other unless they cancelled the 2nd under continuous contravention.

Mick
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cp8759
post Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 14:42
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It's also worth noting there's a known flaw on Barking & Dagenham PCNs, if you still have the one that got cancelled please upload the rear so we can see all of the small print.


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stamfordman
post Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 14:44
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As per MMV did they say on what grounds they cancelled the second one.

Whatever, I would appeal setting out clearly the facts in relation to the second one, and also checking MMV's point about the permit and penalty - what sort of bay was it in - permit only or shared use?

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Swilxert
post Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 14:48
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 13:57) *
Did you display the expired permit and how long had it been expired? You may have been given the wrong contravention and a higher penalty.

Wait for others to respond but it would seem illogical that the Council would cancel one and pursue the other unless they cancelled the 2nd under continuous contravention.

Mick


The council doesn't have physical permits anymore, it's all done digitally online now. When we got the PCN on the 10th we realised that out permit had expired a few months prior, should've been more on the ball but I was expecting a reminder which they stated would be sent out 30 days before expiration.

We have a shared drive with our neighbour so we are constantly on and off the drive to let eachother out, so we can't even remember if we were parked on the road, could have been, but then again no photographic evidence has been taken either to proof that we were.

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 14:44) *
As per MMV did they say on what grounds they cancelled the second one.

Whatever, I would appeal setting out clearly the facts in relation to the second one, and also checking MMV's point about the permit and penalty - what sort of bay was it in - permit only or shared use?


They cancelled the second one because they failed to send out a reminder 30 days before the permit expired.

This post has been edited by Swilxert: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 15:06
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cp8759
post Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 14:51
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QUOTE (Swilxert @ Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 14:48) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 14:44) *
As per MMV did they say on what grounds they cancelled the second one.

Whatever, I would appeal setting out clearly the facts in relation to the second one, and also checking MMV's point about the permit and penalty - what sort of bay was it in - permit only or shared use?


They cancelled the second one because they failed to send out a reminder 30 before the permit expired.

Can you upload a copy of the cancellation letter?


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Swilxert
post Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 14:55
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 14:42) *
It's also worth noting there's a known flaw on Barking & Dagenham PCNs, if you still have the one that got cancelled please upload the rear so we can see all of the small print.


Back of the 2nd PCN added to the original post


QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 14:51) *
QUOTE (Swilxert @ Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 14:48) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 14:44) *
As per MMV did they say on what grounds they cancelled the second one.

Whatever, I would appeal setting out clearly the facts in relation to the second one, and also checking MMV's point about the permit and penalty - what sort of bay was it in - permit only or shared use?


They cancelled the second one because they failed to send out a reminder 30 before the permit expired.

Can you upload a copy of the cancellation letter?


Added to the original post as well now

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 14:44) *
As per MMV did they say on what grounds they cancelled the second one.

Whatever, I would appeal setting out clearly the facts in relation to the second one, and also checking MMV's point about the permit and penalty - what sort of bay was it in - permit only or shared use?

It was a permit holder only bay.
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cp8759
post Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 15:13
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The PCN still has the flaw, it does not comply with appeals regulation 3(2)(b) here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/3/made

Having said that, I cannot see how they could argue the PCN for the 9th should be upheld when the one for the 10th has been cancelled, given the grounds for cancellation that they have given.


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Swilxert
post Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 15:59
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Thanks all for you advice. I've submitted formal representation and will update here when I receive a response.
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cp8759
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 08:56
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As a general rule we advise posting a draft on here before submitting.


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Swilxert
post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 12:23
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 08:56) *
As a general rule we advise posting a draft on here before submitting.

Sorry, didn't realise, makes sense actually. Here it is anyway:

To whom it may concern;

We received a Notice To Owner dated 13th November for PCN BU316635339 for alleged parking contravention 'Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place or zone without clearly displaying either a permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place' that is alleged to have occurred on the 9th October. This PCN has not been served to us by being placed on the windscreen of our van or by post. The Notice To Owner is the first we know about the alleged contravention.

On the 10th October we were served PCN BU31644544 for being 'Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place or zone without clearly displaying either a permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place'. We challenged this PCN through an informal appeal online (reference # W31429019) and received a letter stating our points have been considered and accepted resulting in the PCN being cancelled (letter attached).

The contravention on the 10th October and the alleged contravention on the 9th October relate to parking in the residents' permit holder bay outside our house.

After receiving the Notice To Owner for PCN BU316635339 I checked online for photographic evidence; but there is no photographic evidence present of the alleged contravention (screenshot of this attached as well. To add to that, as I type this formal representation there are not photographs present under the 'Photographs' heading on this online form.

Had we been served PCN BU316635339, allegedly issues on 9th October, we would not have parked in the bay outside our house on the 10th October, resulting in being served PCN BU31644544, which we successfully appealed.
Had we been served PCN BU316635339, allegedly issues on 9th October, we would have taken the same steps and challenged this on the same grounds as we successfully did PCN BU31644544.
Furthermore, as we dealt with the PCN issued on the 10th October promptly why would we not have done so with the PCN allegedly served in the 9th?

Due to PCN BU31644544 being served on the 10th October, we have since ensured that our van is parked on our driveway at all times. Subsequently we have not had any further PCN's issued.

We would appreciate if you could reconsider this Notice to Owner on the grounds mentioned above.

Yours Sincerely,


I received a notice of rejection of representation this morning.






So they say there are photographs of the contravention, although they are not available online. I don't know if it is a glitch in their system and that they do have the photographs, or if they are looking at the photographs of the PCN served the day after. Do I challenge this further or swallow it and pay the £65 reduced fine?
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cp8759
post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 13:24
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You could appeal on the basis that, because the council has exercised discretion to cancel one PCN but not the other, even though the circumstances of the two PCNs were identical, the council's conduct appears to be, absent an explanation, capricious and thus a failure to give representations due consideration. The problem you face is that you didn't mention this in your representations (that's why we ask to seem them first) but the point can still be made, though it will have less force. We need to see the informal representations you made against the PCN issued on 10 October.


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Swilxert
post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 13:33
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 13:24) *
You could appeal on the basis that, because the council has exercised discretion to cancel one PCN but not the other, even though the circumstances of the two PCNs were identical, the council's conduct appears to be, absent an explanation, capricious and thus a failure to give representations due consideration. The problem you face is that you didn't mention this in your representations (that's why we ask to seem them first) but the point can still be made, though it will have less force. We need to see the informal representations you made against the PCN issued on 10 October.


Here is the informal representation:

To whom it may concern;

I received a PCN this morning for parking outside my own house. After some investigating I discovered my residents permit had expired, as the parking officer advised us. I am renewing my permit as we speak. I would expect to be notified, however I did not receive a notification. According to the information on your website this is supposed to be emailed 1 month before the expiration of my permit. In the past when we received a letter regarding our permit expiring I renewed it promptly. Had I received a notification this time I would have renewed my permit immediately.

The only email I received from RinGo was a "Service update: New Privacy Policy and Terms & Conditions" email approx. 1 month before the expiry of my permit, but not a reminder.

As I mentioned above, I am renewing my permit now. I would appreciate if you would reconsider this PCN.

Yours Sincerely,



What about the fact that they claim photographic evidence has been reviewed, but is not available to me when checking the PCN online? I made it very clear in the formal representations that there are no photos available online, they have not acknowledged or denied this. I have filled in a request form online to request any photos they may have relating to this PCN. Point is that I don't know whether this even happened or not, they say it did, I have no knowledge of it and can't find the evidence they claim to have.

This post has been edited by Swilxert: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 13:49
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cp8759
post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 13:50
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Well you could appeal on the basis that the council have not provided any explanation as to why discretion has been exercised differently for two identical PCNs, but IMO this would be at best a 50/50 gamble at the tribunal. See what others say before making a decision.

QUOTE (Swilxert @ Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 13:33) *
What about the fact that they claim photographic evidence has been reviewed, but is not available to me when checking the PCN online? I made it very clear in the formal representations that there are no photos available online, they have not acknowledged or denied this. I have filled in a request form online to request any photos they may have relating to this PCN. Point is that I don't know whether this even happened or not, they say it did, I have no knowledge of it and can't find the evidence they claim to have.

You could mention that but unfortunately it doesn't guarantee success.


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