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UKCPS ticket for different car park, is this fraud??
GBDamo
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 19:49
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Hi all,


The driver has a receipt for a ticket and vehicle tracker data showing the vehicles location which was not in the car park listed on the ticket.

The location details on the ticket are vague to say the least but it is not the car park the vehicle was parked in and have a receipt for.

Hopefully the begging letter is attached.

One, what do you guys think of this, is it legit?

Whats the consensus on dealing with these these days?
Cheers

Damion

This post has been edited by GBDamo: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 20:33
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post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 19:49
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Fluffykins
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 20:03
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Edit your post to refer to "the driver"
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GBDamo
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 20:07
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QUOTE (Fluffykins @ Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 21:03) *
Edit your post to refer to "the driver"


Sorry I don't know what you mean.
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Redivi
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 20:22
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He means to edit your post and remove words like I, we, my wife so UCS can't use your thread to identify the driver

You also need to edit that picture
You've left the PCN reference

Does Citroen charge to pass on your details to parking companies ?

If not, I would wait until UKCPS contacts you
It's a near certainty that it will forget to enclose the necessary documents to recover payment from you as the Hirer

Keep the receipt and tracking data safe
Does it place the car at another UKCPS location ?

This post has been edited by Redivi: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 20:26
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GBDamo
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 20:37
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 21:22) *
He means to edit your post and remove words like I, we, my wife so UCS can't use your thread to identify the driver

You also need to edit that picture
You've left the PCN reference

Does Citroen charge to pass on your details to parking companies ?

If not, I would wait until UKCPS contacts you
It's a near certainty that it will forget to enclose the necessary documents to recover payment from you as the Hirer

Keep the receipt and tracking data safe
Does it place the car at another UKCPS location ?

Text edited, Ill do the pic later.

Why wait for UKCPS to contact me?

Why is citroen charging relevant?
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ostell
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 21:59
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Is this a hire car? Was the PCN forwarded to you from Citroen? Most hire companies charge for forwardeing details to the parking company.

If it is a hire car you are waiting for UKCPS to send you your very own Notice to Hirer.keeper and also include with the notice the documents required by POFA to hold the keeper/hirer liable. (P.S. They usually forget and so the hirer cannot be held liable for the charge) POFA 14 (2) (a)
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kommando
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 22:03
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QUOTE
Why wait for UKCPS to contact me?


QUOTE
It's a near certainty that it will forget to enclose the necessary documents to recover payment from you as the Hirer.


Eg then only then driver will be liable and not the keeper/hirer

This post has been edited by kommando: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 22:03
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GBDamo
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 20:22
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QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 22:59) *
Is this a hire car? Was the PCN forwarded to you from Citroen? Most hire companies charge for forwardeing details to the parking company.

If it is a hire car you are waiting for UKCPS to send you your very own Notice to Hirer.keeper and also include with the notice the documents required by POFA to hold the keeper/hirer liable. (P.S. They usually forget and so the hirer cannot be held liable for the charge) POFA 14 (2) (a)


No, it's a company lease vehicle, the PCN has been forwarded to our company by citreon, our company are the registered keeper.

The PCN gives 'Central car park' as the name and address of site, surely this is not adequate. Not even a city let alone a post code.

We have been back to the car park we know the vehicle was parked in and the background matches perfectly with that in the UKCPS pictures.

This car park is named as Port Street Central on all the signs. The car park is 'managed' by UKCPS

We have a receipt for payment.

That receipt is for three hours from 10:35 to 13:35.

The PCN states 12:35.


Now, I know that all this needs to be forwarded to UKCPS but, to be frank, I am livid that I am having to play detective to prove they have made a mistake.

Is there any mechanism to seek financial recompense for my time and effort?

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ostell
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 22:02
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Your company are not the registered keeper of the car, if they were the registered keeper there would be no need for Citroen to forward a PCN as it would come straight to them.. Lease/ hire it's all the same.

You should not need to respond to the PCN until the company get their very own copy of the PCN.

Have your company got a PCN in there own name yet or are you still looking at a PCN that Citroen forwarded to you? (A PCN that cannot hold the keeper liable unless the information is on the back)

What should happen is that UKCPS issue the PCN to the registered keeper of the car, Citroen, and they say not us guv and send copies of the hire documents back to UKCPS and give the name of the hirer, forwarding the PCN to the hirer at the same time. UKCPS then have 21 days to send a Notice to Hirer/Keeper, your company. With that Notice to Hirer/keeper must be the original PCN and the copies of the hire agreement. This is POFA paragraphs 9, 11 & 12.

Perhaps check with Citroen if they have followed the POFA procedure.

What the PPCs forget to do is include that additional paperwork specified by 14 (2) (a) and as they have not complied with POFA then there can be no keeper liability and they can be told to go away and do one. Here's POFA

Now if you find out exactly what is happening then it would help and I will give you e suitable template to send.

This post has been edited by ostell: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 22:08
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The Rookie
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 18:11
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QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 23:02) *
What the PPCs forget to do is include that additional paperwork specified by 14 (2) (a) and as they have not complied with POFA then there can be no keeper liability

It’s not a case of forgetting, the BVLRA made an agreement with the BPA that their members didn’t need to reply with a copy of the hire agreement (thus maximising their members profits in their admin charge) this means the PPCs don’t have a copy to forget to forward in the first place!


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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GBDamo
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 18:11
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QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 23:02) *
Your company are not the registered keeper of the car, if they were the registered keeper there would be no need for Citroen to forward a PCN as it would come straight to them.. Lease/ hire it's all the same.

You should not need to respond to the PCN until the company get their very own copy of the PCN.

Have your company got a PCN in there own name yet or are you still looking at a PCN that Citroen forwarded to you? (A PCN that cannot hold the keeper liable unless the information is on the back)

What should happen is that UKCPS issue the PCN to the registered keeper of the car, Citroen, and they say not us guv and send copies of the hire documents back to UKCPS and give the name of the hirer, forwarding the PCN to the hirer at the same time. UKCPS then have 21 days to send a Notice to Hirer/Keeper, your company. With that Notice to Hirer/keeper must be the original PCN and the copies of the hire agreement. This is POFA paragraphs 9, 11 & 12.

Perhaps check with Citroen if they have followed the POFA procedure.

What the PPCs forget to do is include that additional paperwork specified by 14 (2) (a) and as they have not complied with POFA then there can be no keeper liability and they can be told to go away and do one. Here's POFA

Now if you find out exactly what is happening then it would help and I will give you e suitable template to send.


Thanks for this I think i understand.

Citroen should have said to UKPCS 'this is not our responsibility, here are the details of the "keeper"' along with a copy of the lease agreement.

(What happens if Citroen haven't done this? I believe Citroen have just forwarded a copy of the PCN to us)

We then wait for UKPCS to send us a fresh PCN, along with copies of the original PCN and lease agreement.


Further details have arisen and I believe the PCN is for parking a van as a separate tariff applies to vans and this is on the car park sign, apparently not noticed by the driver.

Will have to wait until Monday to chase Citroen though.
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ostell
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 20:03
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I should have said POFA paras 9, 13 & 14 Sorry about that.

If Citroen haven't notified UKCPS of the hirer and sent the documents required then they remain liable for the charge. They've had 6 years to get their act together. Normally there is a notice to hire company on a NTK telling them what to do. It's probably on the back of yours.

Citroen have 28 days to get back to UKCPS with the required information and UKCPS have 21 days to get the notice to hirer to you so there could be a while to wait before your very own copy of the paperwork arrives. That's why I suggested you contact Citroen to see what they have actually done. They still have a while to respond properly.

Make certain that the people in your office that would handle the Notice to Hire are aware of the situation and keep everything that is in the envelope with the Notice.

UKCPM might try the trick of saying that the keeper was the driver, many do, but the response to that is "when have you seen a body corporate that can driver"
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cabbyman
post Sat, 15 Sep 2018 - 11:09
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For clarity:

PoFA requires a copy of hire agreement to be sent with the PCN to your company. If the PPC have failed that's their loofout. You are hoping that the PPC fail in that requirement making it a slam dunk win for you.



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