New PCN for Motoring violation, Another 50JL with address issues |
New PCN for Motoring violation, Another 50JL with address issues |
Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 15:21
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
Hi Guys,
Unfortunately, a new motoring violation, but this time received the PCN (DON: 19.03.19) after initial issue to Lex Autolease around 15.01.19. One thing to Note Address Line1 was a bit inaccurate. I have left the number in and blanked out the rest on the images FYI. The format as sent was: 4 4 <STREET NAME> However, should be: 4 <HOUSE NAME> <STREET NAME> Would the inaccuracy open up a chance for an easy technical appeal with LT? If you advise not, I may just pay within discounted period to focus on Appeal with LT (registered today) on my other post. PCN - PAGE1 PCN PAGE2 |
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Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 15:21
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Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 13:18
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#21
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
I take the fact that because the PCN was served, despite the incorrect address, this will most likely be rejected.
Nevertheless, I have made representations based on serving of PCN with incorrect address details. If nothing less buys me more time to pay. |
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Fri, 19 Apr 2019 - 20:13
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#22
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Well post the rejection when you get it, you never know if you're lucky they might mess up the response.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 13:37
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#23
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
Please see the response to my representation to LBOE received on 29.05.19. They haven’t directly responded to my request to cancel due to incorrect address details.
However, I realise these were grounds LBOE were likely to reject. Nevertheless was worth a try as they rejected the grounds from my last PCN, but before the LT hearing decided not to contest. Notably though, the response was correctly addressed this time to: 4 Penalty House, The Avenue instead of 4 4, The Avenue I have 14 days to pay at the discounted amount so should I just give in on this one or do you think there are any ground to make an appeal? Worth taking the risk to take to LT again in the hope they may just not decide to contest? Thanks in advance for any help out there before end of discounted period on 11.06.19. |
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Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 15:38
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#24
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Please see the response to my representation to LBOE received on 29.05.19. They haven’t directly responded to my request to cancel due to incorrect address details. You've posted the original PCN again, you need to show us the rejection letter. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 21:06
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#25
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
Sorry, without thinking I just automatically treated the response from 29.05.19 as being the NOR rather than a PCN.
So, now I realise what LBOE have done. If you look at the details on the LBOE Key Events portal(listed below): I made presentations that PCN issued on 19.03.19 was incorrectly addressed on 15.04.19. Which was accepted on 28.05.19 & they reverted to a "PRE-PCN" status. 29/05/2019 03:00 - PCN Issued 28/05/2019 15:21 - Representation Accepted 28/05/2019 15:21 - Off Hold Compensate 28/05/2019 15:21 - Representation submitted Under review 28/05/2019 15:21 - Revert to pre-PCN 15/04/2019 22:50 - On Hold: Formal Representation Received 19/03/2019 03:00 - PCN Issued So, LBOE rather than accept representations and cancel the original PCN issued on 19.03.19 have issued a new PCN on 29.05.19. Is that allowed? How shall I respond? So, now LBOE have reissued a new PCN addressed correctly I have no point to challenge so is it better just to pay? Thanks for your help and advise on my next move on this. |
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Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 21:23
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#26
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Ah, that's interesting. Well the council has no authority to re-issue a PCN in these circumstances, so by cancelling the original PCN that is the end of the matter. The council purports to have served a new PCN so we must deal with that, but what they have done is effectively hand you a winning hand. Post up a copy of what you sent them.
This post has been edited by cp8759: Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 21:23 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 23:51
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#27
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
Wasn't very technical as I am sure you experts would have submitted, but this is what I submitted on 15.04.19:
I would like to challenge my PCN on the basis of being incorrectly addressed. This despite the fact that the email evidence I have attached dated 26.03.19 from the registered keepers (Lex Autolease) clearly supports the fact that the correct address was provided to Ealing parking services for serving of said PCN. That is, 4 Penalty House, The Avenue, City, County, Post code. Whereas, the issued PCN was incorrectly addressed as: 4 4 The Avenue, City, Post Code. Moreover, if required, I can provide evidence from the issue of a previous PCN (lodged for appeal with London Tribunals, not served some eight months after initial issue of PCN also to Lex Autolease) was not delivered due to the fact it was also incorrectly addressed. Despite, Lex Autolease providing the correct address to Ealing parking services. This history of incorrectly addressed PCN's clearly indicates some form of problem with the automated systems used by LBOE for issuing PCNs in my case. I believe it is the duty of the server of a PCN to ensure it is addressed according to the information provided by the registered keepers. Thereby ensuring that PCN is served without undue delay and reduce the risk for mis-delivery. Based on the representations made above, I respectfully request that the aforementioned PCN is cancelled. Regards, |
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Mon, 3 Jun 2019 - 08:34
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#28
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Draft reps, simple and to the point:
-------------------- Dear Sir or Madam, Having consulted the PCN history on your website, the following is what appears: 29/05/2019 03:00 - PCN Issued 28/05/2019 15:21 - Representation Accepted 28/05/2019 15:21 - Off Hold Compensate 28/05/2019 15:21 - Representation submitted Under review 28/05/2019 15:21 - Revert to pre-PCN 15/04/2019 22:50 - On Hold: Formal Representation Received 19/03/2019 03:00 - PCN Issued I received the PCN dated 19 March and, because it was incorrectly addressed, I made a formal representation against it. I note from the case history that my representation was accepted on 28 May 2019 although I am yet to receive your Notice of Acceptance, which I assume must have been held up in the post. Regardless, I am now in receipt of a further PCN dated 29 May 2019 but in the circumstances, the enforcement authority has no powers to issue and serve additional PCNs for the same contravention. It was open to the enforcement authority to reject the representations made on the basis that even if the address on the PCN was wrong, if it had in fact been delivered to the correct address then service had been effected notwithstanding the incorrect address. The authority instead chose to accept the representation and cancel the PCN, in light of this it cannot now seek to resurrect the case and issue a fresh PCN when the legislation does not empower it to do so. It follows that the new PCN issued on 29 May 2019 is a nullity and must be cancelled. This post has been edited by cp8759: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 - 08:34 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 3 Jun 2019 - 09:33
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#29
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,159 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
I would draft as follows:
Make reps: Grounds: Penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case... Reason: The authority have no power to issue the PCN having already accepted representations against the penalty, my representations and your Notice of Acceptance dated *** and **** (see below) respectively refer. The authority appear to be under the misconception that simply because they have rectified the procedural error in my first PCN they may issue a second. I don't know where this process would end if, say, I identified further improprieties: a third or fourth bite at the cherry perhaps? The PCN is void, para. 2 of Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities Act refers, specifically para. 2(2) because I am not 'another person'. In order to pre-empt any reliance by the authority upon section 6 of the Act - the power to serve a 'fresh notice'- this remains subject to overriding condition in Schedule 1 i.e. only on 'another person'. NB. Your PCN log shows that you accepted my representations on ***, I have therefore used this date as the date of your - yet to be received - NOA. OP, I think you'll have to refer them to the specific legal provision, as above, because it appears this needs drawing to their attention. |
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Mon, 3 Jun 2019 - 13:00
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#30
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
As said, they have handed you a winning hand, they have no authority to serve a fresh PCN but having done so, they are stuck with it.
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Mon, 3 Jun 2019 - 18:18
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#31
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
I would draft as follows: Make reps: Grounds: Penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case... Reason: The authority have no power to issue the PCN having already accepted representations against the penalty, my representations and your Notice of Acceptance dated *** and **** (see below) respectively refer. The authority appear to be under the misconception that simply because they have rectified the procedural error in my first PCN they may issue a second. I don't know where this process would end if, say, I identified further improprieties: a third or fourth bite at the cherry perhaps? The PCN is void, para. 2 of Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities Act refers, specifically para. 2(2) because I am not 'another person'. In order to pre-empt any reliance by the authority upon section 6 of the Act - the power to serve a 'fresh notice'- this remains subject to overriding condition in Schedule 1 i.e. only on 'another person'. NB. Your PCN log shows that you accepted my representations on ***, I have therefore used this date as the date of your - yet to be received - NOA. OP, I think you'll have to refer them to the specific legal provision, as above, because it appears this needs drawing to their attention. PEREFCT MANY THANKS! |
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Mon, 3 Jun 2019 - 19:48
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#32
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
The authority have no power to issue the PCN having already accepted representations against the penalty, my representations and your Notice of Acceptance dated 15.04.19 and 28.05.19 (see below) respectively refer.
The authority appear to be under the misconception that simply because they have rectified the procedural error in my first PCN they may issue a second. I don't know where this process would end if, say, I identified further improprieties: a third or fourth bite at the cherry perhaps? The PCN is void, para. 2 of Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities Act refers, specifically para. 2(2) because I am not 'another person'. In order to pre-empt any reliance by the authority upon section 6 of the Act - the power to serve a 'fresh notice'- this remains subject to overriding condition in Schedule 1 i.e. only on 'another person'. NB. Your PCN log shows that you accepted my representations on 28.05.19, I have therefore used this date as the date of your - yet to be received - NOA. Hi, hcandersen thanks for the brilliant template. If I have interpreted this correctly I will submit with your approval today? |
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Mon, 3 Jun 2019 - 23:31
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#33
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
Don't forget to add the grounds as a heading and end with something like "Many Thanks in anticipation of the cancellation of this unlawfully served PCN."
TBH, I reckon if they had stuck with the original PCN, 50/50 at adjudication. Not served by virtue of incorrect address but practically served as you received it. There was a case a couple of weeks back, damages from a Sunday league footie team IIRC. Damages were awarded but this was the first the team knew of it as the relevant notices had all been addressed to the ground they played on, not the Club Secretary @ proper address. Damages and case was struck out when the team pointed that out. But what if they had got the notices and turned up in court at the first hearing ready to defend ???? |
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Tue, 4 Jun 2019 - 16:24
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#34
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
OK thanks guys will post Reps accordingly.
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Tue, 4 Jun 2019 - 16:44
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#35
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
I have an issue, the online portal doesn't let me make reps this time as I did before.
The button to submit the reps says: "I confirm that I am that the registered owner of the vehicle" Which obviously I am not, but if the PCN has been issued in my name should it not let me override that? I get the Error….."Invalid Operation - Only the registered owner of the vehicle can make a representation" and can't go past this when I hit the submit button. Sorry, Maybe missing the obvious as to how I submitted reps the first time, why am I getting this error now? Help pls? |
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Tue, 4 Jun 2019 - 16:52
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#36
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,280 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
Under a lease agreement you are deemed in law to be the 'owner' for purposes of PCNs
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Tue, 4 Jun 2019 - 18:08
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#37
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,159 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
edited.
This post has been edited by hcandersen: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 - 18:10 |
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Tue, 4 Jun 2019 - 21:40
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#38
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
Whatever I try I cannot get the LBOE On-line portal to allow me to submit Reps.
I have emailed ParkingRep@ealing.gov.uk, but not convinced that is working either as not receiving the ack and key events status isn't changing either. I think I will just have to send my Reps by post tomorrow instead to be sure. This has to be something to do with the PCN being reset to PRE-PCN and being reissued. Anyway, will send Reps by recorded post tomorrow so there is no chance of dispute later. |
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Tue, 4 Jun 2019 - 21:46
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#39
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,656 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Whatever I try I cannot get the LBOE On-line portal to allow me to submit Reps. I have emailed ParkingRep@ealing.gov.uk, but not convinced that is working either as not receiving the ack and key events status isn't changing either. I think I will just have to send my Reps by post tomorrow instead to be sure. This has to be something to do with the PCN being reset to PRE-PCN and being reissued. Anyway, will send Reps by recorded post tomorrow so there is no chance of dispute later. don't send recorded. All that can do is show non receipt as it is usual that these are not signed for by the post room. Get a free proof of posting from the post office counter. You can prove posting and the council would have to rebut the presumption of service -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Thu, 8 Aug 2019 - 19:00
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#40
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
Despite sending in Reps on 10.06.19 by post (as posted up on 3rd June) I am still waiting for cancellation of the PCN.
The PCN is still showing at the discounted amount of £65 too. Anyway, just a quick update on the status of this PCN as I thought our challenge would have had this put to bed by now one way or the other. KEY EVENTS SHOWING ON THE LBOE PORTAL 07/06/2019 01:38 - On Hold :Formal Representation Received 29/05/2019 03:00 - PCN Issued 28/05/2019 15:21 - Representation Accepted 28/05/2019 15:21 - Off Hold Compensate 28/05/2019 15:21 - Representation submitted Under review 28/05/2019 15:21 - Revert to pre-PCN 15/04/2019 22:50 - On Hold: Formal Representation Received 19/03/2019 03:00 - PCN Issued POD from Royal mail shows as 10.06.19 so not sire why Reps is logged on-line as 07.06.19 above . Although did try to post Reps on-line first, but seemed to fail so maybe why. Anyway, maybe just a waiting game as LBOE are one of the worst it seems at replying. This post has been edited by Dexx99: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 00:30 |
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