2021 ~ Reasonable Breaking distance from 40 to 30 |
2021 ~ Reasonable Breaking distance from 40 to 30 |
Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 14:51
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#1
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 3 Joined: 23 Feb 2021 Member No.: 111,709 |
Hi Folks
Traveling at 40mph I have real time footage of passing a temporary change of speed limit sign, saying now 30, to the actual camera field of view The footage second count is 4 Is it reasonable (arguable) that when traveling at 40 mph, passing a temporary 30 sign, that one can decelerate 40 to 30 in 4 seconds before the camera flashes? Does anyone have info / links to printable official deceleration charts / data showing how LONG it takes (not how far) to SAFELY decelerate from 40 to 30? I have received two NIP notices for the exact same "offense" in the exact same location 5 days apart & have re traveled the road with my video camera (phone) From change of speed notice (I understand AT the sign, not when it becomes visible) to the cameras field of vision is 4 seconds as the sign & camera are so close I'm reading a lot on here about how, for example, out of date or no calibration certificates are no defense, visibility of cameras are no defense, ridiculously short distance between change of speed signs & cameras are no defense, number of new speed signs (1) is no defense and many many other things proven to also make no difference when pressure tested in court I'm making this post Feb 2021 looking for advice to give my advocate regarding what MAY make a difference (I have a disability) Surely (!) 4 seconds is not enough to safely decelerate 10mph from 40 to 30? I have zero points ATM & have as yet filled nothing in, nor volunteered to ID the driver ... nothing yet Any advice or suggestions as to how to proceed & other help / links MOST appreciated ~ Thank you very much |
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Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 14:51
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Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 15:00
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,723 Joined: 3 Apr 2006 From: North Hampshire Member No.: 5,183 |
I think any technical argument will be negated by the fact you are supposed to decelerate before the speed limit not after.
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Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 15:15
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,510 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
nor volunteered to ID the driver ... Regardless of any defence you wish to run, you must name the driver within the required time. Failure to do so will see 6 points for each. -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 15:17
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
The sign signifies the start of the 30 limit, not where you start slowing down. Your timer should start from when you should have seen the sign, not when you passed it, why on earth would you think that relevant?
Anyway to answer your academic question. A 1G stop from 60mph tales circa 2.7 seconds, so that is over 20mph/second. So from 40 to 30 in 4 seconds would be braking at slightly less 0.125g which can best be described as sedate braking (you have miss Daisy in the passenger seat). For purely academic comparison a car coasting in neutral under ideal conditions (dry, part worn tyres, low friction surface) will take about 20 seconds to slow from 40 to 30, probably circa just over half that in gear and in the real world unless it's downhill. For information 4 seconds at 40mph is nearly 80 yards, that's the highway code braking distance from 60 to 0mph. To claim you couldn't get from 40 to 30 in circa 80 yards would be, frankly, laughable. Advice, suck it, up, take it on the chin and take a 'dose of reality' pill. This post has been edited by The Rookie: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 15:32 -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 15:23
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,510 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
From change of speed notice (I understand AT the sign, not when it becomes visible) to the cameras field of vision is 4 seconds as the sign & camera are so close There used to be published distances for visibility for decreasing limits, so that it does give you enough time to decelerate before passing the sign. The rules changed a while back but if the limit is sufficiently conveyed then you don't have a hope. -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 15:42
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,746 Joined: 29 Oct 2008 Member No.: 23,623 |
In practice, since enforcement does not begin until 35mph, you would only have to slow to below that to avoid action being taken against you.
As above, your argument that you had insufficient time to slow down before you reached the camera is a non-starter. You are supposed to have slowed to the lower limit by the time you reach the sign. By your reasoning, if the camera was a mile up the road you could have continued at 40mph for that entire distance. Was the sign visible to you before you reached it? This post has been edited by NewJudge: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 15:44 |
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Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 15:49
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,300 Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Member No.: 47,602 |
OP, the offence was committed when you passed the sign at 40, so the position of the camera provides no defence.
40 or less in a 30 limit should get you a fixed penalty (£100 and 3 points). Engaging an advocate will be a complete waste of money, and out of all proportion to what is a very minor offence. I'm assuming the offence was in Scotland? If it was in E or W you should be offered a speed awareness course. This post has been edited by 666: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 15:51 |
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Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 17:38
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,283 Joined: 5 Jan 2012 Member No.: 52,178 |
There used to be published distances for visibility for decreasing limits, so that it does give you enough time to decelerate before passing the sign. The rules changed a while back but if the limit is sufficiently conveyed then you don't have a hope. Regardless of that, when committing the offence for the second time in exactly the same location, any such argument is moot, as you should know where the limit starts from the previous time at the same location, just 5 days prior. |
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Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 17:50
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#9
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 3 Joined: 23 Feb 2021 Member No.: 111,709 |
I think any technical argument will be negated by the fact you are supposed to decelerate before the speed limit not after. Sounds right but, alas, not true when pressure tested Opposite scenario: If you ACCELERATE towards a speed limit sign which indicates a speed above that which you were previously constrained (but you have not as yet reached parallel with the new sign) you are speeding. The sign marks the point at which the limit changes. Not if you can see the sign with 20 x 20 from half a mile away The fact the sign is 'in your field of view' does not give you permission to accelerate up to the new speed before you've reached the sign, thus, the reverse is also true. The temp speed limit only comes into effect opposite the sign itself ... but thanks for your opinion nor volunteered to ID the driver ... Regardless of any defence you wish to run, you must name the driver within the required time. Failure to do so will see 6 points for each. Sure. I never said the NIP had timed out |
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Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 17:55
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
The temp speed limit only comes into effect opposite the sign itself ... but thanks for your opinion The temporary limit comes into effect at the point where the sign is, that is not his opinion it's the law. It's a law you might not agree with (I happen to disagree with many speed limits), but it is what it is. The fact that you can't exceed the previous limit when approaching a sign that shows a higher limit is completely irrelevant. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 17:59
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,723 Joined: 3 Apr 2006 From: North Hampshire Member No.: 5,183 |
The fact the sign is 'in your field of view' does not give you permission to accelerate up to the new speed before you've reached the sign, thus, the reverse is also true. Your conclusion is flawed, you are supposed to be at or below the speed limit at the change in both cases. I've a feeling you won't agree, so I'm out. |
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Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 18:11
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 972 Joined: 9 Oct 2016 Member No.: 87,665 |
The point is, the sign marks the point at which the speed changes. It doesn’t matter if it’s increasing or decreasing. Before the sign, the previous limit applies and after the sign the new limit applies. So if you go from a 30 to a 40, you must accelerate only after you pass the sign and if you go from a 40 to a 30 you must decelerate before you pass the sign.
It’s not about seeing the sign from miles away - the signs are large enough that you should be able to see them long before you need to take any action regarding your speed. You will almost certainly have time to coast down to the new speed without using your brakes at all. Of course, if you choose to wait until you’re level with the sign before taking action, you may find someone has stuck a camera on the other side of it. The fact the sign is 'in your field of view' does not give you permission to accelerate up to the new speed before you've reached the sign, thus, the reverse is also true. No, the reverse is not true. You DO have permission to decelerate down to the new speed before you’ve reached the sign, because speed limits are an upper limit and you are free to drive below the limit if you wish. This post has been edited by Spandex: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 18:24 |
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Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 18:15
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#13
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 3 Joined: 23 Feb 2021 Member No.: 111,709 |
The sign signifies the start of the 30 limit, not where you start slowing down. Your timer should start from when you should have seen the sign, not when you passed it, why on earth would you think that relevant? Because, as you quite rightly point out, THE SIGN signifies the START of the 30 speed limit. NO ONE can say, define, second guess or specify 'when' any one driver 'should' have seen the sign ... which is probably why .... AS YOU RIGHTLY SAY ... it's the SIGN that signifies the START of the new limit ~ hence its 'relevance' Anyway, thanks for all your help |
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Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 18:27
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
The sign signifies the start of the 30 limit, not where you start slowing down. Your timer should start from when you should have seen the sign, not when you passed it, why on earth would you think that relevant? Because, as you quite rightly point out, THE SIGN signifies the START of the 30 speed limit. NO ONE can say, define, second guess or specify 'when' any one driver 'should' have seen the sign ... which is probably why .... AS YOU RIGHTLY SAY ... it's the SIGN that signifies the START of the new limit ~ hence its 'relevance' Anyway, thanks for all your help How far away could you see the sign you’re complaining about? What does 4 seconds equate to? -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 18:29
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 972 Joined: 9 Oct 2016 Member No.: 87,665 |
NO ONE can say, define, second guess or specify 'when' any one driver 'should' have seen the sign ... So, when DID you see the sign? If your whole case hinges on you not seeing the sign until you were level with it, at which point you applied the brakes, you will need to explain why you didn’t see the sign until that point. Perhaps it’s obscured, too small, or some other reason. But it’s no good putting hypothetical reasons forward, you need to explain why this specific sign wasn’t visible to you. |
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Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 18:56
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
Yeah, you missed the point, the limit starts at the sign, so that’s when you need to be obeying it, not sometime longer than 4 seconds later!
-------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 19:06
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,746 Joined: 29 Oct 2008 Member No.: 23,623 |
The fact the sign is 'in your field of view' does not give you permission to accelerate up to the new speed before you've reached the sign, thus, the reverse is also true. Your argument is spectacularly without merit. The limit applies between the two terminal signs. It begins at the point of entry to the limited zone and it ends at the point it ends. I don't know what you mean by "pressure tested" but however your argument is tested it will fail. However, there's an easy way to find out whether all of us on here are wrong: simply decline any offers of a course or fixed penalty, opt for a court appearance and plead not guilty on the basis you describe. Take your cheque book with you (ensuring you have around £1,000 in the bank) and be sure to let us know how you get on. |
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Tue, 23 Feb 2021 - 20:09
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#18
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Member Group: Life Member Posts: 24,213 Joined: 9 Sep 2004 From: Reading Member No.: 1,624 |
For the sake of completeness, assuming that everything else in in order, the only defence would be if the 30mph sign was not visible in time to be able to slow down from the the previous speed limit (40mph) in the time between when the sign became visible and when you passed the 30mph sign (assuming that there was no compliant system of street lighting).
The distance between the signs and the camera is only relevant if the speed limit does not change at the place the signs were placed. In most cases (except rolling roadworks and variable speed limits), the signs do not create the speed limit but are merely required to be placed as close as possible to the change of speed limit to advise of the change of speed limit. Other than default speed limits (e.g. 70mph motorway, 30mph non-motorway with street lights, 70mph dual carriageway without street lights, 60mph single carriageway without street lights) the speed limit changes where the Traffic Regulation Order (or Temporary Traffic Regulation Order) says it does. There were a number of cases many years ago that were overturned because the road specified in the TRO did not exist. -------------------- Andy
Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit. |
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Wed, 24 Feb 2021 - 00:20
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,306 Joined: 4 Mar 2017 Member No.: 90,659 |
If it helps the OP there is already case law on this matter.
The limit usually starts level with terminal signs. The only exception is where the limit is not conveyed to the motorist with sufficient time to slow to the limit, whether or not they knew the limit existed. I would suggest that "sufficient time" is very likely the time an elderly and learned judge would consider reasonable braking, rather than the point before ABS activates. QUOTE There is a requirement that at the geographical point where the motorist exceeded the limit, the requisite signs could reasonably be expected to have conveyed the limit to an approaching motorist in sufficient time for the motorist to reduce from a previous lawful speed to a speed within the new limit. https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2006/3263.html |
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Wed, 24 Feb 2021 - 08:13
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,963 Joined: 19 Dec 2006 From: Near Calais Member No.: 9,683 |
Assuming the temporary speed limit is covered by a valid TRO?
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