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[NIP Wizard] NIP 35 in a 30 South Wales
towel
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 13:47
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - August 2018
Date of the NIP: - 7 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 8 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - at (place) High Street, penydarren, merthyr tydfil
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons -

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 13:47:54 +0000
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post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 13:47
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Redivi
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 13:56
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Failure to name a single driver will automatically result in an S172 prosecution

Reasonable diligence is a very high standard to avoid conviction

35 in a 30 will only result in the offer of a course

Your best strategy is to ask for any photos "to identify the driver"

If that doesn't help, take the pragmatic approach and don't aim for 100% certainty
If the pictures can't prove you wrong, agree who is the more likely driver and, if that isn't possible, flip a coin
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The Rookie
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 14:00
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Perhaps elaborate why you unsure, what checks have you made on what?


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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towel
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 14:14
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 14:56) *
Failure to name a single driver will automatically result in an S172 prosecution

Reasonable diligence is a very high standard to avoid conviction

35 in a 30 will only result in the offer of a course

Your best strategy is to ask for any photos "to identify the driver"

If that doesn't help, take the pragmatic approach and don't aim for 100% certainty
If the pictures can't prove you wrong, agree who is the more likely driver and, if that isn't possible, flip a coin


should I fill the forms in they sent me or should I just send them a letter asking for the pictures?
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thisisntme
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 14:16
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QUOTE (towel @ Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 15:14) *
QUOTE (Redivi @ Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 14:56) *
Failure to name a single driver will automatically result in an S172 prosecution

Reasonable diligence is a very high standard to avoid conviction

35 in a 30 will only result in the offer of a course

Your best strategy is to ask for any photos "to identify the driver"

If that doesn't help, take the pragmatic approach and don't aim for 100% certainty
If the pictures can't prove you wrong, agree who is the more likely driver and, if that isn't possible, flip a coin


should I fill the forms in they sent me or should I just send them a letter asking for the pictures?


If there is telephone number on the NIP, call them, it will speed things up as you won't get an extension on the 28 days to nominate.


--------------------
I reserve the right to be wrong.
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towel
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 14:19
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 15:00) *
Perhaps elaborate why you unsure, what checks have you made on what?


basically I have been racking my brain trying to think where I was on that day and time I have also asked all members of my family if they were driving?

I have looked at that location there is no fixed speed camera there so I can only assume it was a van?

would the van take a picture to help identify the driver?

QUOTE (thisisntme @ Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 15:16) *
QUOTE (towel @ Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 15:14) *
QUOTE (Redivi @ Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 14:56) *
Failure to name a single driver will automatically result in an S172 prosecution

Reasonable diligence is a very high standard to avoid conviction

35 in a 30 will only result in the offer of a course

Your best strategy is to ask for any photos "to identify the driver"

If that doesn't help, take the pragmatic approach and don't aim for 100% certainty
If the pictures can't prove you wrong, agree who is the more likely driver and, if that isn't possible, flip a coin


should I fill the forms in they sent me or should I just send them a letter asking for the pictures?


If there is telephone number on the NIP, call them, it will speed things up as you won't get an extension on the 28 days to nominate.


I have been looking at the location and there is no fixed camera in that area so I can only assume it was from a van?

would the van have taken a picture to help identify the driver?
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peterguk
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 14:28
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QUOTE (towel @ Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 15:19) *
would the van have taken a picture to help identify the driver?

The photo is taken to identify the vehicle.

The photos/video may show the driver, or may not.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 14:31


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The Rookie
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 14:37
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Have you checked diaries, location services on your phones, phone logs to see who was making calls etc.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Jlc
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 14:44
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A High Street in a given town should be memorable for someone...

The bench will find it hard to believe the driver could not be identified after such a short time. How many people are insured to drive it?

It's well reported on here that many family members have amnesia when asked whether they were driving. If you weren't driving then you may wish to remind them that you'll be in court facing 6 points and a large fine compared with the rather simpler outcomes...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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towel
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 15:19
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 15:44) *
A High Street in a given town should be memorable for someone...

The bench will find it hard to believe the driver could not be identified after such a short time. How many people are insured to drive it?

It's well reported on here that many family members have amnesia when asked whether they were driving. If you weren't driving then you may wish to remind them that you'll be in court facing 6 points and a large fine compared with the rather simpler outcomes...


its only me and my grandad I genuinely cannot remember if it was me or not, and trust me if my grandfather knew it was him he would own up in a second,the thought of having to go through all this would stress him out way too much than to withhold anything.

I am now starting to worry as I cannot remember if it was me and if I ask for the pictures and it doesn't show clearly who was driving, and w go to court I don't really want all that hassle a I know if I say I genuinely cannot remember they will just give me a big fine anyway part of me just thinks I now im going to end up with a fine one way or another and just put my name down and that would put an end to it.
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Jlc
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 15:23
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Start with simply asking for any photo's to assist in the identification of the driver. They usually provide them but as already noted they may not be useful in any identification. (It doesn't provide any defence)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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towel
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 15:54
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 16:23) *
Start with simply asking for any photo's to assist in the identification of the driver. They usually provide them but as already noted they may not be useful in any identification. (It doesn't provide any defence)


ok will do I will send them a letter tomorrow.

if the photos do turn up and still can't see who it is, shall I just say it was me or go to court and explain that I genuinely can't remember.

if im just going to go to court and there going to give me an even bigger fine as the owner of the vehicle anyway I might as well put my name down first as last.

perhaps you could explain something to me as I don't know anything about this stuff:

as you mentioned in an earlier post the court will find it hard to beleive I cannot remember who was driving, part of me does think how they can prosecute someone when they don't fully know who was driving themselfs just because I am the owner.
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Logician
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 15:58
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QUOTE (towel @ Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 16:19) *
I am now starting to worry as I cannot remember if it was me and if I ask for the pictures and it doesn't show clearly who was driving, and w go to court I don't really want all that hassle a I know if I say I genuinely cannot remember they will just give me a big fine anyway part of me just thinks I now im going to end up with a fine one way or another and just put my name down and that would put an end to it.


You do not have to be 100% certain of the driver, the most likely driver will do if the picture does not help. So, before returning the form:

1. Ask for any available photograph to help confirm the identity of the driver

2. After you get that, see if it helps. If it identifies the driver fill in the form accordingly.

3. If it does not identify the driver, decide the most likely driver, and fill in the form accordingly.

The driver should then be offered a course, provided he has not done one for an offence within the previous three years.

If you fail to identify unequivocally a single driver, you will be going to court to face a charge notoriously difficult to get acquitted on, so will likely get a large fine and 6 points.


Make sure you do not exceed the 28 day time limit.

Unequivocal identification of the driver is very important, putting in things like "it was probably me" or "I am willing to take responsibility" will see you in court.

This post has been edited by Logician: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 15:59


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Jlc
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 16:00
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You have received a request to name the driver. You must now use reasonable diligence to identify the driver.

If you do not know the driver, or cannot identify them after the aforementioned diligence then you can attempt to use the statutory defence.

If you can convince the court that your diligence was sufficient then you'll walk free. Otherwise, it's 6 points etc. You can be successful in this but it's not an easy task.

QUOTE (towel @ Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 16:19) *
its only me and my grandad I genuinely cannot remember if it was me or not, and trust me if my grandfather knew it was him he would own up in a second,the thought of having to go through all this would stress him out way too much than to withhold anything.

...then that only leaves you or another explanation? (e.g. plate misread)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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towel
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 16:04
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 17:00) *
You have received a request to name the driver. You must now use reasonable diligence to identify the driver.

If you do not know the driver, or cannot identify them after the aforementioned diligence then you can attempt to use the statutory defence.

If you can convince the court that your diligence was sufficient then you'll walk free. Otherwise, it's 6 points etc. You can be successful in this but it's not an easy task.

QUOTE (towel @ Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 16:19) *
its only me and my grandad I genuinely cannot remember if it was me or not, and trust me if my grandfather knew it was him he would own up in a second,the thought of having to go through all this would stress him out way too much than to withhold anything.

...then that only leaves you or another explanation? (e.g. plate misread)


ok thanks for your help, my only defence would be I cannot remember who was driving I have asked my grandfather and he doesn't remember either, so if you want me to put my name down on the form I will but I cannot be 100% sure.

which im assuming would result in me having worse fine sad.gif
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Jlc
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 16:19
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A defence of simply ‘not remembering’ will fail. Wait for the pictures, but the 28 day clock doesn’t stop...

If it was that easy everyone would have amnesia.

QUOTE (towel @ Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 17:04) *
if you want me to put my name down on the form I will but I cannot be 100% sure.

Whoah. Ask for the pictures, starting using some reasonable dilgence... we cannot tell you what to put!


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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towel
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 16:23
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 17:19) *
A defence of simply ‘not remembering’ will fail. Wait for the pictures, but the 28 day clock doesn’t stop...

If it was that easy everyone would have amnesia.

QUOTE (towel @ Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 17:04) *
if you want me to put my name down on the form I will but I cannot be 100% sure.

Whoah. Ask for the pictures, starting using some reasonable dilgence... we cannot tell you what to put!


oh god. sorry mate I used the word YOU instead of THEY sorry about that. I meant to say if they want me to put the name down on the form.

I will await the pictures then post back what I see
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 09:24
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Theyre requring you to identify the driver.
Thats it.

If you cannot do so, you will almost crtainly be summonsed to court with a charge of failure to furnish, which carries 6 points and a hefty fine on conviction. A defence of "i cannot rememebr" is highly unlikely to succeed.

Have you tried looking at your phone to work out if you were tehre that day? There may be location history set.
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