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TFL BOX JUNCTION TICKET HELP, With YouTube video .. HELP
Boxed in
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 12:06
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Hi guys, received a TFL charge as owner of vehicle, I've requested video evidence and it arrived this morning, after reviewing the tape I am sure I have grounds for appeal .. can anyone help?

I'm unable to upload the video as it's ridiculously large

The guy who ends up across my car's path it's clear to see that he shoots off the line with the intent to go into the other lane and once I'm committed (without indicating) he cuts my clear path up.

Any help appreciated

This post has been edited by Boxed in: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 14:33
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post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 12:06
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peterguk
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 12:10
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Wrong forum. A mod. will move.


This post has been edited by peterguk: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 12:16


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cp8759
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 12:11
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A mod will move your post to the correct part of the forum. In the meantime read this in full http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=125502 then update your opening post accordingly.


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cp8759
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 12:59
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Boxed in I've messaged stamfordman if you can get to him and drop off the DVD that might be the quickest way.


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Boxed in
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 14:29
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Link to contravention below

Unable to find original letter

https://youtu.be/ekFTIwlPQHo
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stamfordman
post Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 18:35
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I can't see you being cut up I'm afraid. I can't see why you didn't tuck in behind the van on the outside - lots of room there. Just staying in the box gives you a PCN.

Is that the entire video?

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 - 18:37
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cp8759
post Sun, 17 Mar 2019 - 18:51
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I don't see any cutting up here and I also don't understand why you didn't just follow the van, there was plenty of room to get out of the box.


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Boxed in
post Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 10:28
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The guy who ended up in front of me shot off the line to go into the other lane .. then changes his mind without indicating .. how that's not being cut up is beyond me ?
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nextdoor
post Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 12:03
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Unless I'm watching an entirely different video, the car who ended up in front of you was in the same lane as you in front of the van you were behind. Not sure how that equates to cutting you up!!
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Boxed in
post Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 20:16
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He shoots off the line and then goes to go in the other lane without indicating then decides he can't get in there and comes back over .. any helpful advice ??
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cp8759
post Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 20:53
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QUOTE (Boxed in @ Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 20:16) *
He shoots off the line and then goes to go in the other lane without indicating then decides he can't get in there and comes back over .. any helpful advice ??

Pay the discount and save yourself a lot of hassle.


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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 21:04
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I might be said that I am one of the more enthusiastic poster here when it comes to fighting box junction tickets, but your argument that you were cut up is doomed to fail.

I post this case 2170078458

Mr Preston does not dispute that his car stopped in this box junction at the time alleged by the Enforcement Authority, but put forward a number of arguments as to why he should not have been penalised. In essence he submitted that the traffic was moving steadily as he approached the junction, and that he could not from his point of view predict that the car in front of his would stop as it did, just beyond the box junction markings. He had made every effort to observe the box junction regulations. His car was only stationary for a short time, and in fact no obstruction was caused. He also questioned whether the box junction markings were compliant with the relevant regulations. I do not find that any of those points would give Mr Preston a ground of appeal.
However, having viewed the video footage of the incident provided by the Authority, I have formed the view that the contravention did not occur. Mr Preston’s car undoubtedly did enter the box junction and come to a halt within it. It is also the case that the car immediately ahead of his in the outside lane was stationary, and hence he could not have continued through the junction in that lane. (It actually appears that on the approach side of the junction there is only one lane, but that there are two beyond it, so it cannot strictly speaking be said that Mr Preston’s car was itself in the outside lane at the point when it approached or entered the junction.)
What is also evident is that the inside lane beyond the junction (marked with a Right Turn arrow on the road surface) was unobstructed for a distance that would readily have accommodated the full length of Mr Preston’s car, had he chosen to proceed into it rather than stopping (or indeed after stopping, since the space remained clear throughout the period during which his car remained stationary and even after it moved off). As he pointed out himself, his car had stopped only a short distance into the box junction, so such a manoeuvre would have been entirely feasible, without, for example, the necessity for him to reverse first (which might have been the case had he continued across the junction and stopped immediately behind the vehicle in front).
In his Notice of Appeal, Mr Preston referred to the cases of Gillingham –v- L.B. of Newham (2130193949) and Essoo –v- L.B. of Enfield (2130232767), which he contended supported his case.
The decisions in both of those cases were in fact reviewed and overturned by a panel of Adjudicators on 8 October 2013 – see under Box Junctions in the Key Cases section of the London Tribunals/Environment and Traffic Adjudicators website - and no doubt that was the basis on which the Authority said in their Notice of Rejection, “A motorist cannot escape liability for a box junction contravention by the argument that he/she could have proceeded in another lane but chose not to do so, the motorist who enters the box junction and has to stop because of the 'presence of stationary vehicles on his/her chosen course commits the contravention.”
Paragraph 11 of Part 7 of Schedule 9 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (TSRGD 2016) provides (so far as is material to this appeal) that that a box junction marking, “…conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.”
The issue therefore in this case is not whether Mr Preston’ car did stop due to the presence of stationary vehicles, but whether it had to do so. In my view it did not, as it remained open to Mr Preston at the point when he entered the junction, and even throughout the time his car was stationary, to move to the left into the empty inside lane and clear the junction.
If one considers the mischief that this box junction is aimed at, i.e. to keep a passage clear for vehicles entering from the side road, had such a vehicle approached the junction to enter the main road at the point when Mr Preston’ car was stationary in the box, he would have been able immediately to carry out what might be described as a “knight’s move” into the inside lane, thus clearing the junction of any obstruction.
I accept that this view is not one that was supported by the panel of Adjudicators in the above review cases, and that the Authority’s position is based on those decisions. However, as a preface to those review decisions the panel itself stated at paragraph 11, “It should be emphasised that Adjudicators are a Judicial Tribunal. They are not a Court of Record. Therefore, although the Adjudicators will have regard for each other’s decisions and treat them, where appropriate, as persuasive both as to accuracy of law and as to the desirability of consistency, that is the limit of the authority of their decisions. The same is, of course, true of this Panel Decision.”
I would of course advise Mr Preston in future to avoid even entering a box junction unless he can clearly see that there is already a space big enough to accommodate his car immediately beyond the junction and directly ahead of his car, but I am not satisfied that on this occasion the contravention as alleged occurred.



It is not the common finding of adjudicators but IMO it has more chance than the I was cut up argument


My advise would be pay the discount


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Boxed in
post Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 07:00
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Thank you for the detailed advice pastmybest .. appreciate it
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Boxed in
post Mon, 25 Mar 2019 - 11:11
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Guys .. I actually won .. see attached picture, for everyone who were telling me to pay .. sorry but you were wrong .. thanks and happy trails
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stamfordman
post Mon, 25 Mar 2019 - 11:20
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Well done - we do say if you don't ask you don't get - what was your appeal?
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Boxed in
post Mon, 25 Mar 2019 - 12:52
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My appeal was simply I was cut up .. no indication from anyone.. the van came around the guy who went into the lane and then back over again with no indication .. worked as it was true
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cp8759
post Tue, 26 Mar 2019 - 18:17
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Sometimes you get lucky.


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