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Red Light Offence
David93
post Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:07
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Evening all,

I have a hypothetical question here that I'm curious about.

If a person was to run an amber going onto red (would be 2 seconds over at most) and there was no red light camera however there was a police van 2 cars behind and the van did not pull the person over, then the person gets on with the rest of their day, would that person be at risk of NIP? I would assume yes, but just wanted to clear that up.

Last question would be; I've seen a lot of these red light offence get summonsed straight to court instead of an FPN, if this was the case, would that be classed as a criminal record?

Thanks for the help guys,

This post has been edited by David93: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:17
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post Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:07
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Jlc
post Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:15
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Amber means stop. However, if the car is so close to the stop line that they cannot stop in time then the light can be treated as green. If any part of the vehicle crosses the stop line during red then the offence is definitely complete.

As you note, camera's only arm a short time after red is illuminated. 'Amber' offences are only manually detected. Unless it was a clear case of 'ignoring' amber then it is unlikely to be pursued and would normally trigger a stop at the time. However, it is possible a NIP/s172 could be issued by post.

They rarely go to court unless it was a significant time into red. (Most are dealt with by course/fixed penalty)

As the offence is a criminal one then, yes, one would have a criminal record upon conviction - but most traffic offences are considered 'non-recordable' and are unlikely to impact.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:16


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Slithy Tove
post Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:17
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QUOTE (David93 @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:07) *
If a person was to run an amber going onto red (would be 2 seconds over at most) and there was no reg light camera however there was a police van 2 cars behind and the van did not pull the person over, then the person gets on with the rest of their day, would that person be at risk of NIP? I would assume yes, but just wanted to clear that up.

All sounds a bit "specific" to be hypothetical.
If the occupants of the police van (a) thought that you were taking the p*** (e.g. you, I mean, the car was only doing 10mph at the time and could easily have stopped) and/or (b) they could be bothered, then a NIP is possible.
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David93
post Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:22
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:15) *
Amber means stop. However, if the car is so close to the stop line that they cannot stop in time then the light can be treated as green. If any part of the vehicle crosses the stop line during red then the offence is definitely complete.

As you note, camera's only arm a short time after red is illuminated. 'Amber' offences are only manually detected. Unless it was a clear case of 'ignoring' amber then it is unlikely to be pursued and would normally trigger a stop at the time. However, it is possible a NIP/s172 could be issued by post.

They rarely go to court unless it was a significant time into red. (Most are dealt with by course/fixed penalty)

As the offence is a criminal one then, yes, one would have a criminal record upon conviction - but most traffic offences are considered 'non-recordable' and are unlikely to impact.


Thanks for your response.

Just to clear this up, my question was in relation to if there was a police van 2 cars or so behind you and no fixed camera. If you weren't pulled at the time, what are the chances of hearing from it and if so, how long would such an instance take?

I've never quite got my head around how reading some people were summonsed for 2 or 3 seconds and as you state, result in a criminal record, but someone could be doing 90 in a 70 and just get an FPN which results in no criminal record.

QUOTE (The Slithy Tove @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:17) *
QUOTE (David93 @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:07) *
If a person was to run an amber going onto red (would be 2 seconds over at most) and there was no reg light camera however there was a police van 2 cars behind and the van did not pull the person over, then the person gets on with the rest of their day, would that person be at risk of NIP? I would assume yes, but just wanted to clear that up.

All sounds a bit "specific" to be hypothetical.
If the occupants of the police van (a) thought that you were taking the p*** (e.g. you, I mean, the car was only doing 10mph at the time and could easily have stopped) and/or (b) they could be bothered, then a NIP is possible.


It really is a hypothetical question and I'm actually using it for studying smile.gif This forum has proven to be quite popular across the internet and thought I could get some good answers.

Thank you smile.gif

Edit: Search function wasn't working out to well for me, hence the post too.

This post has been edited by David93: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:23
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Jlc
post Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:26
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QUOTE (David93 @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:20) *
Just to clear this up, my question was in relation to if there was a police van 2 cars or so behind you and no fixed camera. If you weren't pulled at the time, what are the chances of hearing from it and if so, how long would such an instance take?

Unlikely, but possible. If they were to pursue then a NIP would have to be delivered within 14 days to the registered keeper.

QUOTE (David93 @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:20) *
I've never quite got my head around how reading some people were summonsed for 2 or 3 seconds and as you state, result in a criminal record, but someone could be doing 90 in a 70 and just get an FPN which results in no criminal record.

Speeding and signal offences are all criminal matters. Whether it's dealt with by course/FP or prosecution doesn't change matters.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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David93
post Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:29
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:26) *
QUOTE (David93 @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:20) *
Just to clear this up, my question was in relation to if there was a police van 2 cars or so behind you and no fixed camera. If you weren't pulled at the time, what are the chances of hearing from it and if so, how long would such an instance take?

Unlikely, but possible. If they were to pursue then a NIP would have to be delivered within 14 days to the registered keeper.


QUOTE (David93 @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:20) *
I've never quite got my head around how reading some people were summonsed for 2 or 3 seconds and as you state, result in a criminal record, but someone could be doing 90 in a 70 and just get an FPN which results in no criminal record.

Speeding and signal offences are all criminal matters. Whether it's dealt with by course/FP or prosecution doesn't change matters.


Understood.

I read online that an FPN does not result in criminal record, however a court summons of a guilty plea would result in a criminal record on DBS checks, etc.

This post has been edited by David93: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:29
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DancingDad
post Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:32
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:26) *
……...Speeding and signal offences are all criminal matters. Whether it's dealt with by course/FP or prosecution doesn't change matters.


Doesn't accepting a course dodge the criminal offence part ?
Basically the cops are saying "we can do you for X but if you accept a course we won't"
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Jlc
post Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:34
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Here's a good summary.

Note the list including speeding/traffic signs.

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:32) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:26) *
……...Speeding and signal offences are all criminal matters. Whether it's dealt with by course/FP or prosecution doesn't change matters.

Doesn't accepting a course dodge the criminal offence part ?
Basically the cops are saying "we can do you for X but if you accept a course we won't"

Indeed, accepting the course means no FP or prosection.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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David93
post Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:38
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:34) *
Here's a good summary.

Note the list including speeding/traffic signs.

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:32) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:26) *
……...Speeding and signal offences are all criminal matters. Whether it's dealt with by course/FP or prosecution doesn't change matters.

Doesn't accepting a course dodge the criminal offence part ?
Basically the cops are saying "we can do you for X but if you accept a course we won't"

Indeed, accepting the course means no FP or prosection.


Thanks for that link. It's pretty much answered my question in saying that this "Failing to observe traffic a sign" which would be the red light offence would be "These motoring offences are not imprisonable and do not appear on a criminal record". Therefore one would have no criminal record as a result of the courts decision or your own guilty plea.
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DancingDad
post Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 09:47
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QUOTE (David93 @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:38) *
......….Thanks for that link. It's pretty much answered my question in saying that this "Failing to observe traffic a sign" which would be the red light offence would be "These motoring offences are not imprisonable and do not appear on a criminal record". Therefore one would have no criminal record as a result of the courts decision or your own guilty plea.


That's about the size of it.
For completeness, if any offence gets a fine or points, FPN or from court, it will need declaring when the question is asked by insurance companies.
Some are also asking for details of courses when asked to quote.
Only have to declare them if asked.
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Mayhem007
post Fri, 22 Feb 2019 - 09:31
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QUOTE (David93 @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:22) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:15) *
Amber means stop. However, if the car is so close to the stop line that they cannot stop in time then the light can be treated as green. If any part of the vehicle crosses the stop line during red then the offence is definitely complete.

As you note, camera's only arm a short time after red is illuminated. 'Amber' offences are only manually detected. Unless it was a clear case of 'ignoring' amber then it is unlikely to be pursued and would normally trigger a stop at the time. However, it is possible a NIP/s172 could be issued by post.

They rarely go to court unless it was a significant time into red. (Most are dealt with by course/fixed penalty)

As the offence is a criminal one then, yes, one would have a criminal record upon conviction - but most traffic offences are considered 'non-recordable' and are unlikely to impact.


Thanks for your response.

Just to clear this up, my question was in relation to if there was a police van 2 cars or so behind you and no fixed camera. If you weren't pulled at the time, what are the chances of hearing from it and if so, how long would such an instance take?

I've never quite got my head around how reading some people were summonsed for 2 or 3 seconds and as you state, result in a criminal record, but someone could be doing 90 in a 70 and just get an FPN which results in no criminal record.

QUOTE (The Slithy Tove @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:17) *
QUOTE (David93 @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:07) *
If a person was to run an amber going onto red (would be 2 seconds over at most) and there was no reg light camera however there was a police van 2 cars behind and the van did not pull the person over, then the person gets on with the rest of their day, would that person be at risk of NIP? I would assume yes, but just wanted to clear that up.

All sounds a bit "specific" to be hypothetical.
If the occupants of the police van (a) thought that you were taking the p*** (e.g. you, I mean, the car was only doing 10mph at the time and could easily have stopped) and/or (b) they could be bothered, then a NIP is possible.


It really is a hypothetical question and I'm actually using it for studying smile.gif This forum has proven to be quite popular across the internet and thought I could get some good answers.

Thank you smile.gif

Edit: Search function wasn't working out to well for me, hence the post too.

Any case, which has the potential, of ultimately being dealt with by a magistrates court is deemed to be a criminal offence. Any other offences are civil offences and therefore dealt with by the appropriate court i.e civil court.
In some places throughtout England car parking offence are deemed to be criminal, whilst the rest have decriminalised car parking offences.
As said by others the offences are non recordable and therefore there is no requirement to disclose the information


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