No PCN received, NO PCN - Charge certificate sent in post |
No PCN received, NO PCN - Charge certificate sent in post |
Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 19:58
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 20 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,506 |
Hi,
I have received a council charge certificate in the post on sat 20th Oct from Worthing Borough Council. I work as a Specialist Liver Nurse and was attending a meeting at the drug and alcohol service across the road. Unfortunately, I had parked on a road with restricted parking between 10-11am and 2-3pm and according to the council's website they sighted my car at 10:39 and issued PCN at 10:44. This must have been just after I left the car. See below: [/img] My concern is that this is the first time I have been made aware of the fine. It appears from the council's website (see below for screenshots) that they had put a PCN on my car, however, when I returned to my car it was not present and therefore I was not aware of the fine. The penalty charge is now £105 and they have asked in the letter that I pay within 14days or they will refer to county court. It states on the council website that I am unable to make representations as a charge certificate has been sent. However, the council might consider a representation under exceptional circumstances if I submit by post. I am hoping that the fact as this is the first time I am being informed of the PCN it would be considered an exceptional circumstance. I would be grateful if you can advise if there is anything I can include in my letter to try and plead my case? to have the fine reduced back to the original fine. many thanks Sam |
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Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 19:58
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Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 20:15
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
By the look of the dates the charge certificate has been issued prematurely. They should have sent a notice to owner. Note that the NTO issue date is blank on the CC and they make reference to it having been sent. This is a procedural error and I would make a rep pointing this out and asking for the PCN to be cancelled.
This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 20:30 |
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Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 20:47
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,280 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
By the look of the dates the charge certificate has been issued prematurely. They should have sent a notice to owner. Note that the NTO issue date is blank on the CC and they make reference to it having been sent. This is a procedural error and I would make a rep pointing this out and asking for the PCN to be cancelled. +1 Great spot. Earliest possible date for NtO, 4th Oct. Earliest possible date Charge Cert, 5th Nov. -------------------- |
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Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 20:59
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21,018 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
Yet another thick and stupid council ! I bet they don't give way when confronted with their idiocy, though.
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Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 21:06
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
By the look of the dates the charge certificate has been issued prematurely. They should have sent a notice to owner. Note that the NTO issue date is blank on the CC and they make reference to it having been sent. This is a procedural error and I would make a rep pointing this out and asking for the PCN to be cancelled. +1 Great spot. Earliest possible date for NtO, 4th Oct. Earliest possible date Charge Cert, 5th Nov. +2, once they realise their error they should cancel. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 21:19
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,656 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
By the look of the dates the charge certificate has been issued prematurely. They should have sent a notice to owner. Note that the NTO issue date is blank on the CC and they make reference to it having been sent. This is a procedural error and I would make a rep pointing this out and asking for the PCN to be cancelled. +1 Great spot. Earliest possible date for NtO, 4th Oct. Earliest possible date Charge Cert, 5th Nov. +1 If the law is applied correctly you cannot lose but might have to jump through a few hoops. Keep an eye out for the next document (order for recovery) you would need to deal with this to stop things getting messy in the meantime send to council Dear Mr parking ref PCN number xxxxxxxx I am in receipt of your charge certificate dated 19th of October 2018. I have never recieved a notice to owner for this PCN. You will note from your records that given the date of contravention no NTO could be served before the 4th of October. I would then by regulation have 28 days to make payment or to make representations. This would make the earliest date for the service of a charge certificate the 5th of November. You have served this charge certificate some 18 days before the regulations allow. I am sure you are aware that this is a procedural impropriety and as such any adjudicator would be obliged to cancel this PCN. I write to you now in the hope that you will take the appropriate actions and cancel this PCN without delay for rest assured that if the enforcement process continues I will make the permitted statutory declaration. I will make an appeal to the adjudicator and I will seek to recover the costs your actions will have forced me to incur -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 21:22
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,280 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
I suggest that clearly be headed as 'Representations'
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Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 21:36
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,656 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
I suggest that clearly be headed as 'Representations' good point -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 16:36
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 20 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,506 |
Many Thanks for your fast responses.
I have followed the advice and sent a letter titled Representations and currently awaiting a response. Interestingly I have now received an NTO, dated 26/10/18 (charge certificate date 19/10/18) - see below. |
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Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 17:44
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
So make formal reps against the NtO, and include a copy of the Charge Certificate (hold onto the original):
----------- Dear Sir or Madam, I am in receipt of your Notice to Owner, however you had already served a premature Charge Certificate, see enclosed copy. As the premature service of a charge certificate is a procedural impropriety of rather epic proportions, I look forward to prompt confirmation that the PCN and NtO have been cancelled. You will appreciate that it would be wholly unreasonable for you to pursue this penalty any further. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 19:26
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 20 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,506 |
Thanks for the advice, I will do this and update you on any progress.
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Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 20:00
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 20 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,506 |
Hi - I have heard back from WBC and have received a rejection letter. I am now wondering if I should appeal? It seems it is ok for them to make an error with no consequences but not me. See below
Can you advise? |
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Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 21:24
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,280 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
It seems it is ok for them to make an error with no consequences but not me. No it is not! They must be insane! I am now wondering if I should appeal? Why? You are in for the full amount; it can't go higher. You have the strongest case on a legal issue we've seen for ages. -------------------- |
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Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 21:55
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,160 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
Hold on.
Where are your reps? That you received a premature CC is NOT a get out of jail card IF the authority issued a NTO in time to which they did not receive reps in time. With respect, we've got carried away on this point ( yes it was improper, but if they can show that the NTO was issued correctly then the CC point could not be aired because you would have no route to adjudication). You therefore made late reps (which is always something I recommend: there is no time limit for owners to make reps) which were not disregarded. So, they issued a NOR. And that's your pass key. But we don't know what they rejected (did you actually date them 30 Nov?) because we haven't seen them. Anyway, you now have access to an adjudicator where the impropriety of their procedures would be exposed. I'll join the bandwagon of Worthing haters (join it, I'm in the b****y vanguard, so far my three cases have been won at appeal with costs; PCN cancelled; and PCN cancelled but we think we're right but we've changed our signage anyway!). Anyway, so we can advise on the full range of grounds at your successful appeal post your reps, and leave in dates. |
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Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 22:00
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,280 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
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Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 22:09
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,656 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Got to disagree HCA reg 4(5)(b) of the appeals regs deals specifically with the premature issue of a CC
(5) In these Regulations “procedural impropriety” means a failure by the enforcement authority to observe any requirement imposed on it by the 2004 Act, by the General Regulations or by these Regulations in relation to the imposition or recovery of a penalty charge or other sum and includes in particular— (a) the taking of any step, whether or not involving the service of any document, otherwise than— (i) in accordance with the conditions subject to which; or (ii) at the time or during the period when, it is authorised or required by the General Regulations or these Regulations to be taken; and (b) in a case where an enforcement authority is seeking to recover an unpaid charge, the purported service of a charge certificate under regulation 21 of the General Regulations before the enforcement authority is authorised to serve it by those Regulations. reg 4(4) lays out the only action an adjudicator may take (2) If, on an appeal under this regulation, the adjudicator after considering the representations in question together with any other representations made to the effect referred to in regulation 4(2)(b) and any representations made by the enforcement authority, concludes that a ground specified in regulation 4(4) applies, he shall allow the appeal and may give such directions to the enforcement authority as he may consider appropriate for the purpose of giving effect to his decision, and such directions may in particular include directions requiring— (a) the cancellation of the penalty charge notice; (b) the cancellation of the notice to owner; and © the refund of such sum (if any) as may have been paid to the enforcement authority in respect of the penalty charge. Not quoting regs to teach granny to suck eggs its for the OP and others -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 22:39
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 20 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,506 |
Thanks for your replies.
Below is my reps. |
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Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 22:48
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,656 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
So what they have done is take your letter challenging the CC as representations against a notice to owner that could only have been served 3 days after the date of the letter another PI
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 13:37
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
So register an appeal on the tribunal website, write "detailed grounds to follow" in the grounds box and in due course we will write your representations for you. As the Charge Certificate was issued on 19 October, before the Notice to Owner (which is dated 26 October), this is a virtually guaranteed win at the tribunal. The fact that you were not disadvantaged is irrelevant, it's still a procedural impropriety and my bet is that the council won't even bother contesting the appeal.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 20:55
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 20 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,506 |
Ok - on the tribunal website, it requests for me to explain my appeal - see below.
QUOTE cp8759 - "detailed grounds to follow" in the grounds box and in due course we will write your representations for you. Is the 'explain my appeal' box what you refer to as the ' grounds box' Thanks |
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