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andy_foster
Posted on: Yesterday, 21:32


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You seem to have read your previous post as selectively as you read other people's posts.

Your first point is broadly correct - if the DVLA had the previous RK listed as the current keeper at the time of the enquiry, and the police would have had no reason to doubt its accuracy, then obtaining the OP's details would have required speculative investigation which would have gone beyond reasonable diligence.

If the PNC was out of date, and the DVLA database had the OP listed as RK then it would seem to be at least arguable that the police could with reasonable diligence have ascertained the OP's details. The fact that their policy is to use potentially out of date information does not necessarily mean that accessing up to date information from the DVLA is beyond reasonable diligence.

However, your post goes from being arguably right (and arguably wrong) to being completely wrong (in the context of it being in any way relevant).
If the PNC showed an issue, and the police could reasonably obtain information from the MIB database and look up the previous keeper's details, then only doing what would pretty much be guaranteed not to provide the driver or RK's details cannot be said to exhaust reasonable diligence. The law does not say "as long as the police did something that seems reasonable it's all gravy", it says "could not with reasonable diligence...".
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1434982 · Replies: 15 · Views: 469

andy_foster
Posted on: Yesterday, 19:42


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Since when does "could not with reasonable diligence" equate to "did something which seems reasonable"?

Whilst somewhat nebulous, "reasonable diligence" means pretty much the same as "reasonable diligence" does in s. 172(4) RTA 1988
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1434955 · Replies: 15 · Views: 469

andy_foster
Posted on: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 23:06


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QUOTE (TonyS @ Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 08:45) *
Does the reason actually matter in the end?


Yes.

As regards the s. 172 requirement and the alleged motoring offence, the OP's obligation is basically to tell the police that it wasn't his car - which he has already done.

However, if he is the victim of identity theft, and possibly the target of some kind of vendetta (naming him simply to try to escape liability for the motoring offence makes no sense), then that is a far bigger issue, and unlike the s. 172 issue, still a live one.

I note that the web portal shows 'vague' information which corresponds to what he has been told over the phone. I would be asking whether the person on the other end of the phone is merely relying on similar 'information', or has seen the purported nomination. However, if I was the OP and had taken what I had been told at face value, I would be kickinfg and screaming until the bigger issue was properly investigated/resolved.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1434247 · Replies: 28 · Views: 1,647

andy_foster
Posted on: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 22:55


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QUOTE (smarties99 @ Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 14:19) *
Not sure why there is so much reluctance to believe that the RK has unlawfully accessed my details by looking up a similar plate and nominating the driver (or paying someone to do so on his behalf?) The only logical explanation I can come up with is that there is some (misguided, hopefully) belief by the RK that nominating someone with a very similar plate might either 'trick' me into paying, or cast some doubt over the accuracy of the electronic systems if pursued in court?


To do so would be quite difficult, very illegal and almost certain to be caught out. And it is inconceivable that such a scam could work.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1434242 · Replies: 28 · Views: 1,647

andy_foster
Posted on: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 20:13


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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 20:10) *
Pleading not guilty means he disputes some aspect of the allegation.


Not necessarily. He may well have a purely technical defence such as [respectfully] pointing out that the court have no jurisdiction to try the information as the proceedings are unlawful.

edit: I have found a candid approach such as "Your worships, I feel that I ought to apologise for running a purely technical defence, however that would be somewhat hypocritical" goes down well.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1434140 · Replies: 37 · Views: 1,508

andy_foster
Posted on: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 20:09


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QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 23:00) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 20:09) *
IOW the validity or otherwise of the OP's licence does not appear to have any bearing on the defence to the speeding charge.


But if the licence is not valid, then he has not submitted his licence, so has not complied with the conditions. Is he then a person without a licence, whose driving record needs to be examined?


There is no requirement in law to submit a licence if the alleged offender is not the holder of a licence (see s. 75(8A) RTOA 1988)
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1434135 · Replies: 37 · Views: 1,508

andy_foster
Posted on: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 20:33


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QUOTE (fonzie @ Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 11:58) *
Straight road, 7:30pm, a car travelling at a slightly faster speed next to me.


It might be worth writing to them asking for 'photos to help to identify the driver' if there is a possibility that the speed recorded was the car not you.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1433867 · Replies: 12 · Views: 607

andy_foster
Posted on: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 20:17


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QUOTE (smarties99 @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 15:52) *
However, I've phoned the number on the NIP today to discuss, and it turns out that someone has nominated me as the driver!


Most likely explanation is that what you were told was a terminological inexactitude. However, applying Hanlon's razor, it seems likely that this is due to poor procedures and employing idiots, than any form of deliberate dishonesty.

We have had cases here where the police speculatively sent out NIPs to the RKs of all vehicles matching a partial number plate - without giving any indication that there were merely fishing, and cases where the computer system has shown a driver nomination when a reminder NIP was issued.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1433862 · Replies: 28 · Views: 1,647

andy_foster
Posted on: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 20:09


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It appears that Simon is almost correct. The effect of payment of the Fixed Penalty is provided for in s. 76(2) Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.
The exception is is subsection (3) - where it appears to the clerk that the criminal scum would be liable to tot up - either from his licence endorsements or his driving record (ghost licence) if he does not hold a licence. IOW the validity or otherwise of the OP's licence does not appear to have any bearing on the defence to the speeding charge.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1433859 · Replies: 37 · Views: 1,508

andy_foster
Posted on: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 18:28


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There is no such thing as a "3 points NIP". If we have to guess as to what actually happened, our advice will at best be 'woolly'.

Were all of the offences within 3 years of each other? N.B. Only the dates of the offences matter for totting, not the date of NIP issuing, fixed penalty or conviction.

What charge(s) are on the SJPN(s)? Taking a woolly guess, I suspect that there might be an s. 172 charge (or 2) in there.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1430999 · Replies: 35 · Views: 1,771

andy_foster
Posted on: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 18:18


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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 16:31) *
They have up to 6 months from the offence date to commence proceedings (send paperwork) and usually take most of that time. After 7 months it looks likley it dropped off the table, or possible paperwork has gone to an old address?


They have 6 months to instigate proceedings from the date of offence for speeding offences, and 6 months from when sufficient information came to the knowledge of the prosecutor for certain other offences, including insurance offences and driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence.
The statute requires the notice to be issued within the 6 months, not served.

QUOTE (Idiot2018 @ Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 16:56) *
I was advised to tell them that I was a provisional licence holder with no insurance.


We don't particularly care what you were told, or why you did it (except for certain posters who consider it useful to point out that you could have done something different when it is too late to do anything about it). What we want to know is what the police know (or failing that, what you have told them).
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1430996 · Replies: 9 · Views: 411

andy_foster
Posted on: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 19:58


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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 17:53) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 15:40) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 14:41) *
QUOTE (Trampilot @ Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 15:18) *
You could make them an offer of £100 per day to allow their advertising on your property. If they don't reply or remove within 7 days you will assume they agree to these T&Cs and will begin to bill them.

That won't work, a failure to respond would not constitute acceptance of the terms.


You are correct that silence does not constitute acceptance. However, I am far from certain that continuing to display their board could not constitute acceptance.

An acceptance of what? The PPC has not made any offer to the OP, they are trespassing upon his property. I suppose if the sign were left for a long period of time they could make an estoppel argument but the sort of bods that work at a PPC won't even know what that means.


rolleyes.gif
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1429375 · Replies: 13 · Views: 1,580

andy_foster
Posted on: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 15:40


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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 14:41) *
QUOTE (Trampilot @ Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 15:18) *
You could make them an offer of £100 per day to allow their advertising on your property. If they don't reply or remove within 7 days you will assume they agree to these T&Cs and will begin to bill them.

That won't work, a failure to respond would not constitute acceptance of the terms.


You are correct that silence does not constitute acceptance. However, I am far from certain that continuing to display their board could not constitute acceptance.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1429327 · Replies: 13 · Views: 1,580

andy_foster
Posted on: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 14:32


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 10:23) *
TBH I often feel a little sorry for the caller.
Chances are with many calls that they are simply drones, given a list of numbers and a script.
Doesn't stop me taking them off script when the mood takes me. smile.gif


They know full well that what they are doing is dishonest, illegal and extremely annoying. If you feel sorry for them, then there is clearly something very wrong with you.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1429297 · Replies: 29 · Views: 1,543

andy_foster
Posted on: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 17:04


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Don't worry too much about the 28 day rule (the legal requirement under s. 172(7) RTA 1988 to provide the required information within 28 days beginning with the date of service). There is a defence if you can show that it was not reasonably practicable to provide the information within the 28 days AND that you provided it as soon as was reasonably practicable afterwards. However, it is rare to be prosecuted for providing the information a few days late anyway.

Coincidentally, the penalty for failing to name the driver is a level 3 fine (not exceeding £1000) and 6 points. The penalty for speeding is a level 3 fine and 3-6 points OR a ban.
If you were to fail to provide the driver's details, the endorsement code for the points (MS90) might have a higher impact on your insurance than the endorsement for speeding (SP30), but it would be unheard of to be banned. Without evidence that you were driving it would be impossible to convict you of the speeding offence.

If you plead guilty to an offence in response to a SJPN/postal requisition/summons, you are generally entitled to a 1/3 discount - so the maximum fine would be ~£667 (plus prosecution costs of ~£85 and 10% surcharge). The courts will usually allow you to pay it in instalments within a year.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1429153 · Replies: 14 · Views: 683

andy_foster
Posted on: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 20:15


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QUOTE (AnywhereButHomettttt @ Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 14:41) *
When is the 28 days from? If it's the date of the letter, she can't possibly respond within 28 days - that's tomorrow!


It's 28 days beginning with the date of service (delivery) of the notice. The potential issue is that, as with the 14 day rule for the NIP part, service is deemed to have been effected 2 working days after posting unless the contrary is proven.

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 15:09) *
Some forces send the reminder as an exact copy of the original NIP, that may explain the apparent long duration in the postal system.


Without a covering letter?
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1427872 · Replies: 9 · Views: 599

andy_foster
Posted on: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 18:06


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In theory, the regulars on this site all have a relatively low Trump number (if you ignore the F2F element), as the 'old guard' have (or had) connections with someone who is a friend of Nige's.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1427180 · Replies: 581 · Views: 76,440

andy_foster
Posted on: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 17:44


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QUOTE (Steve_999 @ Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 18:27) *
She was the "star pupil", knowing just about all the answers (like the speed limits on a motorway!) and, as a reward, was given a copy of the Highway Code. I'm still trying to work out why the book was given to the only person in the room who apparently didn't really need it!


Presumably for the same reason that the courses are offered to the offenders who are least likely to benefit from them.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1427174 · Replies: 43 · Views: 3,445

andy_foster
Posted on: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 13:25


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On the face of it you have been served with a valid legal obligation to provide information in the manner requested (in writing). You can either properly post it, deliver it personally (if it is not a PO Box), or get royally shafted for failing to provide information.

You may feel that it is unfair that you have this legal obligation. We are here to provide advice on legal matters, if you want tea and sympathy, go to see your Mum.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1426915 · Replies: 10 · Views: 617

andy_foster
Posted on: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 19:07


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QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 12:55) *
There is a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival, in that having just bought the car you were obviously not the registered keeper at that time, so the first NIP would have gone to the previous owner.


If we assume that the OP bought the car privately, that would be a very reasonable assumption. However, if the OP bought the car from a dealer, and if it was showing as being "in trade", then I would not suggest discounting the possibility of a late NIP defence.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1426446 · Replies: 7 · Views: 517

andy_foster
Posted on: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 19:23


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I have ridden with a number of police motorcyclists, and from what I have seen of their riding, I would say that Mr Head Cam is not a police motorcyclist. A police occifer who also happens to ride motorcycles poorly in his spare time, seems vaguely possible, but I have doubts.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1425522 · Replies: 52 · Views: 4,697

andy_foster
Posted on: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 14:38


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Strangely enough, most of us know what a blank page looks like without having to see a picture.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1425101 · Replies: 20 · Views: 1,205

andy_foster
Posted on: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 13:57


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Presumably you are looking for a 'NIP not served on the driver or RK within 14 days' defence? The problem with that is that there is an exemption to the 14 day rule where "the accused by his own conduct contributed to the failure" - so asking your neighbour to return it rather than simply handing it to you would almost certainly satisfy that.

If you can afford £10k a day for the services of Nick Freeman, he might be able to argue that a notice delivered by the Royal Mail to the wrong address and subsequently delivered by the occupant to the correct address is not good service, but I doubt it.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1425096 · Replies: 5 · Views: 654

andy_foster
Posted on: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 18:59


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You have an 'incomplete' notice that may or may not constitute a legal requirement to provide information. We cannot see your notice and cannot determine what if anything you are legally obliged to do.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424945 · Replies: 20 · Views: 1,205

andy_foster
Posted on: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 18:54


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A reputation facility is not a panacea, and can be counter-productive.

The site is effectively a loose affiliation of posters, some more regular than others, some more knowledgeable than others, and some more inclined to tell posters to 'roll over' than others. Those that run the site have decided that it is not appropriate to be seen to be specifically endorsing advice given by particular posters - free advice does not come with any kind of warranty.

If, as has been suggested, there is an informal clique of sanctimonious naysayers, it would seem pretty safe to assume that they would give each other a great rep.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1424319 · Replies: 78 · Views: 3,108

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