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PCN: Single yellow Incorrect Signage PCN note, Only one sign south side of road 47m run of single yellow.
Preston
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 12:21
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I received a parking ticket for parking on single yellow line.

It is a one way street running West to east with double yellows on entry for 1m changing to single yellow.

As the linage changes from Double yellow to single yellow there is no sign to inform you of restrictions on south side of road for the single yellow line area.
(There is on north side of road. ) I parked on south side of road. Further up the south side 47/48 m further up where it goes
where the single line then returns to double there is a sign informing you of restrictions on the single yellow.

I am informed that there should be a sign indicating parking restrictions as you enter the one way and the fact that the single yellow runs for 47 m there should be two one at each end?

Is it possible for me to appeal the parking ticket on the basis there should of been another parking restrictions sign along its length on the south side of Edwards St as you enter the one way st?


Kind regards

Preston

This post has been edited by Preston: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 20:19
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post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 12:21
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stamfordman
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 12:46
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here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.7612853,-2....6384!8i8192

it's a pretty sure bet the line is controlled the same as that opposite and I would have checked the line for signs. But there probably was a sign at the top end - looks like pavement has been redone - so worth a shot.

you can see a round feature on the pavement going back:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.7612898,-2....3312!8i6656

post all the PCN.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 12:48
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Preston
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 12:54
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Thanks Stamfordman , for the advice and the map link 👍
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Preston
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 13:22
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I have just read Traffic management signs 2018 chapter three .
Published on a .gov site.


https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...-chapter-03.pdf

It states.

13.4.15. A sign should normally be erected within 15 m of the start and end of the prohibition. Where there is a change in the prohibition, signs for each prohibition are normally mounted either side by side or one above the other at the changeover point. Each sign should include
an arrow indicating the direction in which the prohibition extends. Where a sign indicates both a prohibition of waiting and loading and only one of those prohibitions changes, the arrows should be applied only to the prohibition that changes. It is not necessary to duplicate the prohibition that does not change with an arrow pointing in each direction. Figures 13‐13, 13‐14, 13‐15, 13‐16, 13‐17, 13‐18 and 13‐19 give examples of signing changeover points, together with the appropriate road markings. Where the prohibition of loading changes, but not the prohibition
of waiting, the yellow “no waiting” line at the changeover point does not have a transverse mark. Upright signs at the changeover point may be combined into a single sign or mounted separately. Where the resulting sign or combination of signs is not rectangular, a grey backing board may be used. This need not extend beyond the top and bottom of the assembly, or beyond the sides of the widest sign.


“ A sign should normally be erected within 15m of the start and end of the prohibition. “

There was no sign at the start of the single yellow line. Would this be strong enough ground to challenge the PCN?

Has anybody challenged on these grounds before ?

Regards

Preston

This post has been edited by Preston: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 13:35
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 14:29
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When you park on a SYL you are on notice that there is a restriction and should look for a sign to check what that is. There should be a sign at the start of the restriction not the end but an adjudicator might well think The sign is less the 50 metres away the guidance is that there should not be more than 60 so even if parked at the start the sign is not to far away

Pay your money and take your chance really. but if you post the PCN we can check it for flaws


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Preston
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 21:30
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 15:29) *
When you park on a SYL you are on notice that there is a restriction and should look for a sign to check what that is. There should be a sign at the start of the restriction not the end but an adjudicator might well think The sign is less the 50 metres away the guidance is that there should not be more than 60 so even if parked at the start the sign is not to far away

Pay your money and take your chance really. but if you post the PCN we can check it for flaws


I was in the shop for 5 mins when came out warden was sticking the ticket to the window !

It ridiculous she then took pictures and walked off!

If I am to abide to the signs of the council, then surely they should abide to the guide lines and put the signs upwithin 15m of each end of the restriction starting and finishing.?

I will give it a go and see what happens.

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stamfordman
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 22:08
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You chanced your arm on this presumably. You need to post the PCN.
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Preston
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 13:53
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 23:08) *
You chanced your arm on this presumably. You need to post the PCN.


No to be honest.
I will post PCN tonight when I am back home.

Regards

Preston

This post has been edited by Preston: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 10:36
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Preston
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 15:24
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PCN Notice.
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
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Preston
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 20:24
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Why is there a huge white gap between my original first question post and the first reply ?

Regards

Preston
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Incandescent
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 21:28
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QUOTE (Preston @ Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 21:24) *
Why is there a huge white gap between my original first question post and the first reply ?

Regards

Preston

Its the way the forum facility works, probably space for an advert. Your first reply from Stamfordman came very shortly after your first post

QUOTE (Preston @ Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 21:24) *
Why is there a huge white gap between my original first question post and the first reply ?

Regards

Preston

Its the way the forum facility works, probably space for an advert. Your first reply from Stamfordman came very shortly after your first post
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Preston
post Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 09:05
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Ah okay ,

Thanks for that, I am about to write my appeal on the PCN!

Is there any technical irregularities anybody has spotted ?

Kind regards

Preston

This post has been edited by Preston: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 09:14
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Mr Mustard
post Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 16:48
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Given that this is a one way round and you haven't passed the sign an adjudicator on a good day might find signage to be inadequate.

The bit that bothers me is the inbuilt unfairness on the back of the PCN

'the enforcement authority will decide in each case whether or not to extend the period within which the reduced penalty charge may me made'
.

That leaves the motorist in a nervous and uncertain position and must nudge many into making a 50% payment in case it does not get offered again.

I don't think I would raise that second point before the tribunal stage though. I don't do many TPT Appeals as I fare much worse there than at London Tribunals and so, for once, I don't wish to act as representative.


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Preston
post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 10:34
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QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 17:48) *
Given that this is a one way round and you haven't passed the sign an adjudicator on a good day might find signage to be inadequate.

The bit that bothers me is the inbuilt unfairness on the back of the PCN

'the enforcement authority will decide in each case whether or not to extend the period within which the reduced penalty charge may me made'
.

That leaves the motorist in a nervous and uncertain position and must nudge many into making a 50% payment in case it does not get offered again.

I don't think I would raise that second point before the tribunal stage though. I don't do many TPT Appeals as I fare much worse there than at London Tribunals and so, for once, I don't wish to act as representative.



Dear Mr Mustard/Stamfordman /pastmybest,

Thanks for your views and input.

I will send the appeal in and see how it goes .

Kind regards

Preston

This post has been edited by Preston: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 10:38
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John U.K.
post Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 12:26
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QUOTE
I will send the appeal in and see how it goes .


Always best to post your draft here for comment before sending.
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Preston
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 13:52
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QUOTE (John U.K. @ Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 13:26) *
QUOTE
I will send the appeal in and see how it goes .


Always best to post your draft here for comment before sending.



PCN Number: LQ

Vehicle reg:

Home address :


To whom it may concern.

I travelled along corporation St Preston in a northerly direction, I entered into Edwards St. a one way St. in a westerly direction . I parked on the Southerly side of Edwards St, to visit the carpet shop opposite . As I parked I spotted the Double yellow lines on the corner had changed to single yellow lines. There was no parking restrictions sign on or within 15m of the change in yellow line restrictions.

It was a one way St , which prevented me from travelling further into Edward St as due to the one way restriction I would not of been able to reverse back up the street and park where I did.

Whilst there where two parking restrictions signs in place on the northerly side of the st. , restricting parking on the Northerly side there where none present on the Southerly side within 15m of the line change.

When I had come out of the carpet shop, there where two traffic wardens stood at the side of my car. One had placed a yellow PCN notice. I at this point raised the fact there was no parking restrictions sign within 15m of the sign. The warden the pointed to a sign some 48m away which was at the end of the single yellow line as it returned to double yellow lines.

I pointed out to the traffic warden the guidelines say there should be a parking restrictions sign at each change of line restriction. The response I received was that the “new supervisor “ who’s name the traffic warden wouldn’t give me had told the wardens to “do anybody if there was a single sign up” The traffic warden then quoted an example of a loading bay in Fox St Preston where they where ticketing people even though there was only one sign.

I pointed out that the difference in the two scenarios was the loading bay in question was less than 15m long, and readable from parking anywhere within the loading bay restrictions area. That in this case the single sign ( I then paced it out was approximately 48m away from where I had parked. It wasn’t in clear view as a van was parked in front of me when I pulled up or readable from the point
I had parked.

As I was returning from pacing the distance out from my car to the single restriction sign at the terminating end of the single yellow line the Traffic warden took some photos of my car and walked away.

I am appealing this PCN as it states in the traffic management hand book.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...-chapter-03.pdf


13.4.15. A sign should normally be erected within 15 m of the start and end of the prohibition. Where there is a change in the prohibition, signs for each prohibition are normally mounted either side by side or one above the other at the changeover point. Each sign should include
an arrow indicating the direction in which the prohibition extends. Where a sign indicates both a prohibition of waiting and loading and only one of those prohibitions changes, the arrows should be applied only to the prohibition that changes. It is not necessary to duplicate the prohibition that does not change with an arrow pointing in each direction. Figures 13‐13, 13‐14, 13‐15, 13‐16, 13‐17, 13‐18 and 13‐19 give examples of signing changeover points, together with the appropriate road markings. Where the prohibition of loading changes, but not the prohibition
of waiting, the yellow “no waiting” line at the changeover point does not have a transverse mark. Upright signs at the changeover point may be combined into a single sign or mounted separately. Where the resulting sign or combination of signs is not rectangular, a grey backing board may be used. This need not extend beyond the top and bottom of the assembly, or beyond the sides of the widest sign.

It clearly states.

13.4.15. A sign should normally be erected within 15 m of the start and end of the prohibition.

A. I state that the northern side of Edwards St, is correctly signed with two restrictions signs on the single yellow line.
B. I state that the Southerly side of Edwards St is incorrectly signed with only one restriction sign in place at the other end of the restriction.
C. The sign is not at the start of the change in relation to the direction of traffic due to the oneway system, it is some 48m away from were I parked and where the restriction sign is.

Due to the lack of signage of the single yellow restriction and no sign within 15m of the start of the restriction change I would ask the adjudicator to cancel this PCN.

Yours Sincerely.



Comments or advice welcome ?

This post has been edited by Preston: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 14:11
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Mr Mustard
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 14:56
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I prefer brevity. I would simply write

'I was not put on notice of any restriction by adequate signage'.


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 18:54
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QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 15:56) *
I prefer brevity. I would simply write

'I was not put on notice of any restriction by adequate signage'.



I would disagree this time Mr M its all the OP has and is a bit tenuous anyway so giving the council something to think about gives them a better chance to mess up their reply


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Preston
post Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 09:19
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Thanks for both the replies.

I will add in the suggested line as a conclusion. That way covering both aspects.

Regards

Preston
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Preston
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 17:58
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QUOTE (Preston @ Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 10:19) *
Thanks for both the replies.

I will add in the suggested line as a conclusion. That way covering both aspects.

Regards

Preston



Hi,

To the forum administration who facilitate the forum ,and all the people who offered advice and support thanks.

The letter dropped through the door yesterday ....

“Your PCN has been cancelled as it has been issued incorrectly “

Kind regards

Preston
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