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Speeding Help Needed ASAP!
Ewan1
post Thu, 15 Jan 2009 - 11:46
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Hello All!

Im currently serving out in Afghanistan with HM Forces.
My boss back in the UK has just informed me that my MT (Mechanical Transport) Section has recieved what they are sure is a speeding fine in the post for me from West Mercia Police.
I was driving a hire car on 17 Dec 08 so can only assume it was then. I dont speed and I am a very careful driver with no points on my licence so I am very annoyed.
My MT Section was sent the letter two days ago and are sending it out to me in Afghanistan. This should take a week.
I dont have my paper part of my licence with me and am not back in the UK until May so would not be able to send it to them. Obviously I will ask for proof from them like the photograph and they would have to send it to my work who them would in turn send it out to me here. There is going to be a big delay (1-3 weeks in receiving mail and the same time in sending it back to the UK) in me getting anything and replying plus mail here gets lost alot.
Obviously I am panicking alot which is not good when I need to concentrate on my job out here. I really don't need this.

What can I do?
And where do I stand?
Should I ask for photographic proof when I get the NIP?

Please help a Serviceman in need!

Thanks in advance.

This post has been edited by Ewan1: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 - 03:01
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post Thu, 15 Jan 2009 - 11:46
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southpaw82
post Thu, 15 Jan 2009 - 11:55
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You will probably be best filling in the NIP Wizard when (if) you receive an NIP.

I take it the MTS has it because this is the address you used with the hire company? As and when you do receive anything then don't write back asking for proof etc. Simply write back and ask for photos to help you to ID the driver. Also mention where you are, as replying within the 28 day time limit is going to be difficult!

You've other things to worry about in Afghanistan so don't worry about a speeding matter - it's unlikely to affect you too much, especially if it was barely over the limit. One word of warning though - go check with the Clerk whether you need to report this under AGAI (assuming you're Army).


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bargepole
post Thu, 15 Jan 2009 - 12:01
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QUOTE (Ewan1 @ Thu, 15 Jan 2009 - 11:46) *
Im currently serving out in Afghanistan with HM Forces.
My boss back in the UK has just informed me that my MT (Mechanical Transport) Section has recieved what they are sure is a speeding fine in the post for me from West Mercia Police.
I was driving a hire car on 17 Dec 08 so can only assume it was then. I dont speed and I am a very careful driver with no points on my licence so I am very annoyed.
My MT Section was sent the letter two days ago and are sending it out to me in Afghanistan. This should take a week.

Question - why would the police send the NIP to your UK Army base? Was the hire car rented in your own name, or that of the Unit? If it was in the forces' name, your boss should not be sending it to you, he should complete the form naming you as the driver, giving your full address details. If your current address reads something like "BFPO 9999, Helmand Province, Afghanistan", I doubt that the scammers will bother following this up.

QUOTE (Ewan1 @ Thu, 15 Jan 2009 - 11:46) *
I dont have my paper part of my licence with me and am not back in the UK until May so would not be able to send it to them. Obviously I will ask for proof from them like the photograph and they would have to send it to my work who them would in turn send it out to me here. There is going to be a big delay in me getting anything and replying plus mail here gets lost alot.
Obviously I am panicking alot which is not good when I need to concentrate on my job out here. I really don't need this.

If the NIP is in your name, you have 28 days to complete and return the form to West Mercia Police naming yourself as the driver. You could write beforehand, asking for photos "to help with driver identification", although that doesn't extend the 28 days. Don't mention evidence or proof at this stage.

If you put the Afghan address on the form, I'll bet they won't bother chasing you up.



This post has been edited by bargepole: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 - 12:02


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Ewan1
post Thu, 15 Jan 2009 - 12:16
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The car was hired by the MOD from Hertz for official Duties and I am down as the driver on the MOD paperwork.
My address out here does not have Afghanistan in the address but has a military British Forces Post Office Address (BFPO) instead. I get my mail sent to my UK Base who forward it on to me.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 15 Jan 2009 - 13:12
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Repost when you have it, if its not addressed to you, you have no obligation to do anything with it (as it will say on it), in which case what you do with it is upto you, your MT manager may not like getting a summons (although it would be his own fault) after all!

If it is addressed to you (apart from WTF was he doing opening it) come on here, complete the Wizard and have the output posted in the thread, and further advice can be given.

It would be helpful to know how long you had the hire car for and what you (breifly) did with it so we can determine if you were legally the 'keeper' or 'any other person' at the time of the alleged offence.

Simon


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southpaw82
post Thu, 15 Jan 2009 - 13:32
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Have a read of s. 183 of the RTA 88. It's arguable that the requirements of s. 172 do not apply to persons (or vehicles) engaged in the public service of the Crown.


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The Rookie
post Thu, 15 Jan 2009 - 15:47
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http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/ukpga...#pt7-pb8-l1g183

Section S172 is in part VII

S182 says
183 Application to the Crown

(1) Subject to the provisions of this section—

(a) Part I of this Act,

(b) Part II of this Act, except sections 68 to 74 and 77,

© Part III of this Act, except section 103(3),

(d) Part IV of this Act, and

(e) in this Part, sections 163, 164, 168, 169, 170(1) to (4), 177, 178, 181 and 182,

apply to vehicles and persons in the public service of the Crown.


Hence as SP says S172 does not apply to vehicles and persons in the service of the crown.

Simon

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 - 15:55


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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jobo
post Thu, 15 Jan 2009 - 16:07
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so does mean he would not need to reply or that they couldn't use the info once they had it


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The Rookie
post Thu, 15 Jan 2009 - 16:17
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AIUI he need not reply as S172 does not apply to him, if he did reply (to protect himself) could the info then be used? I'm not sure!

Simon


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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southpaw82
post Thu, 15 Jan 2009 - 16:19
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I would suggest that if s. 172 does not apply then there is no obligation to respond to it. Note that I have no idea whether I'm right or not.


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jobo
post Thu, 15 Jan 2009 - 16:43
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so its a fair guess then that if his boss didn't name him, they couldn't prosecute the mod either ?


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jobo

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Ewan1
post Fri, 16 Jan 2009 - 03:08
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Im not sure if I was down on the Hire Paperwork as the hirer. I'm sure I was named somewhere. The vehicle was being hired by the MOD and NOT me. Although I am down on the MOD paperwork as the user. The car was hired out for 24hrs and the hirer, other MOD personnel and myself had access to it. I only used it for one journey. This journey was an official journey on MOD Duties.

My boss hasn't opened it. My MT section received the letter and are sure that it is a NIP.

So if I am not named specifically then I should be ok?

But I take it if my name is on the NIP then I am not ok?

I have read S.173 & S.183 of the RTA 1988 and am still not sure how I can be exempt?
The vehicle was being used at the time in official public service of the crown.

This post has been edited by Ewan1: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 - 03:24
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Ewan1
post Fri, 16 Jan 2009 - 13:49
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Can anybody give me any help?
I cant concentrate on my job for worrying about it!
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andy_foster
post Fri, 16 Jan 2009 - 13:59
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QUOTE (Ewan1 @ Fri, 16 Jan 2009 - 13:49) *
Can anybody give me any help?
I cant concentrate on my job for worrying about it!


Reality check...

You are serving with the armed forces in Afghanistan, and you are more worried about a Talivan than the Taliban?
Until you get the letter, which may or may not be a NIP, there's not a lot you can do about it, and there's not much that we can add at this stage.


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"Whatever the intention of Parliament was, or was not, the law is quite clear." - The Rookie
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southpaw82
post Fri, 16 Jan 2009 - 21:37
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Agreed. If you're that stressed go and see the padre.


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CountryCousin
post Fri, 16 Jan 2009 - 22:53
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QUOTE (Ewan1 @ Thu, 15 Jan 2009 - 11:46) *
Obviously I will ask for proof from them like the photograph and they would have to send it to my work who them would in turn send it out to me here. There is going to be a big delay (1-3 weeks in receiving mail and the same time in sending it back to the UK) in me getting anything and replying plus mail here gets lost alot. Obviously I am panicking a lot which is not good when I need to concentrate on my job out here. I really don't need this.


From personal experience I do completely agree that the level of worry and stress that the scammers cause to normally law abiding citizens by making them subject to the Criminal Law over a matter which is in fact simply part of New Labour anti car dogma (and has no proven benefits in reducing accidents) is quite disproportionate. To them it is just another one towards their meaningless annual speeding ticket target but to you it feels like a huge personal attack and slight on your character.

It seems to me you would be well advised to try to get a definitive view from one of the solicitors recommended by this website as to whether serving members of the armed forces driving on armed forces business (as you clearly were) are in fact covered by the S172 law requiring you to disclose the driver. If not then your best bet might be to reply to the Chief Constable pointing out that under the relevant law you are not required to provide this information. If you just don't reply to the NIP the danger is surely that the scammers would then take out court proceedings for failure to identify the driver and you would then have to go to court to prove you were not subject to this law. There is a list of legal advisers recommended by this website at http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?autoco...rticle&id=3 I have found Robert Dobson at Price Woodrow to be very helpful in offering several minutes free informal advice on the phone on more than one occasion without trying to get any money out of you. His email address is robert@prycewoodrow.co.uk and his phone number is +44 20 8770 9609

Regarding asking for photographs of the alleged offence (or rather asking for information that may help identify the driver as you must phrase it in any letter to the scammers) I can only say that for the last 6 months I have been trying to get a certain Police force to give me a photograph for an alleged Talivan detected offence back in the Summer but they have instead offered several elaborate ruses for refusing to do so including claiming the photo was of the back of my vehicle so this would not help identify the driver and then when their own staff admitted on the phone that it was a Talivan and taken from the front and I wrote in to point this out they claimed that the sun was bouncing off my car's windscreen in the photo and so it would still not ID me (hence they still refused to supply it). Now they have issued a summons in which they have still not attached a photo of the alleged detected offence, even though their witness statement refers to a still photo from their DVD recording. My legal advice is that the photo is almost certainly defective or non existent for them to try this on but they seem determined to call my bluff by seeing if I am willing to plead Not Guilty and take the time to turn up in court to ask where is the evidence. So if you ask for photographs there is no certainty at all you will get them. However If your legal advice (after taking it) is that you do still have to respond to the S172 request to identify the driver then perhaps you could try getting a fax number for the Safety Camera Unit of the Police and see if they will accept faxes from you to overcome some of the time problems (but can you send a fax from Afghanistan). You should note that they do not usually prosecute for failing to identify the driver if your form doing so is returned after 28 days as long as there is some valid reason for lateness such as time taken for corresponence to get to Afghanistan. Strictly speaking they could do so if they are feeling bloody minded but in my case I only finally ID'ed the driver some 6 weeks after the original 28 day deadline after they had said they would supply photographs and then changed their mind and I had to correspond again about that and now the summons finally issued is only for the speeding offence.

I think trying to get a definitive view from Robert Dobson or one of the other solicitors on whether you are covered by the requirement to disclose (S172) when on official armed forces driving business and then if not writing to the Chief Constable for this force pointing this out might not be the best way ahead. Most Police forces have an email address for the Chief Constable. If you say which force this is I'm sure I can track it down and post it on here for you.

While I note others saying you are putting your life on the line serving out in Afghanistan so should not get this speeding NIP out of proportion I think your point is really that because you are putting your life on the line you don't have the time or emotional or other resources to deal with nonsense like this too and also that dealing with it from Afghanistan is nightmarishly difficult to do. So I can entirely understand exactly how you may be feeling, especially as this journey was on official military business.
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hugh_jars
post Fri, 16 Jan 2009 - 23:43
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Surely if you only used the car once then it's unlikely it was you??

How are the Scammers identifying you?
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southpaw82
post Sat, 17 Jan 2009 - 00:13
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The scammers aren't identifying him, someone has named him in responce to a s. 172.


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Ewan1
post Sat, 17 Jan 2009 - 13:25
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 17 Jan 2009 - 01:13) *
The scammers aren't identifying him, someone has named him in responce to a s. 172.

I don't think I have been named. I just think they are forwarding the NIP onto me.
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jobo
post Sat, 17 Jan 2009 - 16:06
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well they have got ytour name from the hire company or its not in your name at all

let us know when it turns up


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jobo

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