PCN stopping in a box junction Options

[Muaythai123]

Hi all
Just wondering if there is anything I can do about this pcn that I got for stopping in a box junction

The car in front of me stopped and I saw I was in a junction too late. The video shows me stopped there for around 9 seconds

I am not blocking anyone and there is a keep clear section / yellow lines before the box junction.

Guess I will have to pay but was just checking

Thanks

Location is South Woodford high road just outside the Waitrose



This post has been edited by Muaythai123: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 16:33

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[stamfordman]

For best advice post the video and PCN.

If you are the car in the middle of the box at end of queue from the still it looks like you had acres of room to drive out of the box in the left lane.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.

[Muaythai123]

Yes I am the last car I was going to go to the left lane but there was another car that came behind

Video is below

Video

PCN is below

https://ibb.co/hD1W9mb

This post has been edited by Muaythai123: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 16:58

[stamfordman]

Well if you'd have still gone left after those two cars that may have saved you. You can see you were going to do this but you'd probably have to take to adjudicator to decide if you were not technically blocked in the box.

Post all of the PCN.

Also note that you can't be done for stopping in a keep clear area, only the yellow box.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 17:25

[cp8759]

Post all of the PCN.

+1, it looks like there's a flaw but we need to see all the pages to confirm.

[Muaythai123]

Ok, will post the rest of the PCN when I get home from work.

Thanks!

[Muaythai123]

This is the back of the pcn...... anything I can do?

https://ibb.co/n8TYKHG

[Muaythai123]

Can anyone see a way out of this? Or would I have to pay.

Might argue with the above anyway, noting that I was not trapped in the box and could of left.

[PASTMYBEST]

Its a gamble, and you are on the back foot. The panel decision on box junctions found that the lane you are in is the one that is considered when stopped. This is not binding however and adjudicators have found that if you could have changed lanes there is no contravention.


My view of the video is that you did not consider changing lanes until to late for this argument to hold. The technical flaw on the PCN is likewise 50/50 at best.


Yes an argument could be made but at a risk of the full amount. Its your money you decide

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 - 10:36

[Muaythai123]

What is the technical flaw on the PCN?

[PASTMYBEST]

What is the technical flaw on the PCN?

They state that if you have not paid or made representations in the 28 day period they may increase the penalty to £195 (this is correct) they then go on to say the may then send you a CC. ( this is not , the period for issuing a CC is 28 days beginning with date of service)

[Muaythai123]

Ok so if I wanted to argue it I would state
1. I was not stuck behind the other car and could have moved into the other lane at any time
2. The period for issuance of the CC is incorrect

Might be worth a shot as I understand if the representation is rejected then you still get the discount?

[stamfordman]

1. I was not stuck behind the other car and could have moved into the other lane at any time

You can see you were orienting to move as such but let 2 cars go by. As the video cuts out soon after what happened?

Both grounds are thin but as we often say if you don't ask you don't get, and they will reoffer the discount.

[Muaythai123]

What is the technical flaw on the PCN?

They state that if you have not paid or made representations in the 28 day period they may increase the penalty to £195 (this is correct) they then go on to say the may then send you a CC. ( this is not , the period for issuing a CC is 28 days beginning with date of service)

And to confirm here you are saying that the deemed date of service should not be the 14th but should be when I have received the letter? So they cannot say 28 days from the 14th?

1. I was not stuck behind the other car and could have moved into the other lane at any time

You can see you were orienting to move as such but let 2 cars go by. As the video cuts out soon after what happened?

Both grounds are thin but as we often say if you don't ask you don't get, and they will reoffer the discount.

I just drove straight in the same lane as the lights turned green. I should have moved earlier really but thought I was already going to get the ticket.

[PASTMYBEST]

What is the technical flaw on the PCN?

They state that if you have not paid or made representations in the 28 day period they may increase the penalty to £195 (this is correct) they then go on to say the may then send you a CC. ( this is not , the period for issuing a CC is 28 days beginning with date of service)

And to confirm here you are saying that the deemed date of service should not be the 14th but should be when I have received the letter? So they cannot say 28 days from the 14th?


No the 28 days they talk of is from date of notice the date of service is 2 days working days later

1. I was not stuck behind the other car and could have moved into the other lane at any time

You can see you were orienting to move as such but let 2 cars go by. As the video cuts out soon after what happened?

Both grounds are thin but as we often say if you don't ask you don't get, and they will reoffer the discount.

I just drove straight in the same lane as the lights turned green. I should have moved earlier really but thought I was already going to get the ticket.

[cp8759]

What is the technical flaw on the PCN?

They state that if you have not paid or made representations in the 28 day period they may increase the penalty to £195 (this is correct) they then go on to say the may then send you a CC. ( this is not , the period for issuing a CC is 28 days beginning with date of service)

Just to point out how thin this is, on the back of the PCN for correct period for making reps is clearly given, and it's been held these PCNs must be read as a whole.

On top of that, the period for service of the CC starts once the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the PCN has expired, the Act says nothing about the date of issue of the CC. As the CC is deemed to have been served two working days after it was issued, the authority could argue that if they issue the CC on day 29 days from the date of issue the PCN, the recipient won't get it for another two days so it will be served on the first permissible day. I'm not saying the adjudicator would accept this, but they might.

[Jollygreengiant]

This is too late for the OP, but are the markings actually legal?
The cutaway is far more than the 10% allowed.


South Woodford box junction O/S Waitrose

EDIT: I've just looked at the latest TSRGD and the 10% cutaway restriction doesn't seem to be included any more... OOPs. When did that go?

This post has been edited by Jollygreengiant: Fri, 3 May 2019 - 13:07