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Advice with Apcoa PCN please
AlexPrince
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 12:49
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Just after some advice. Where I live I have no resident parking but as I work in the day I only really have to worry about parking on a Saturday. This is usually in the car park
near my home. Therefore I would park up on a Friday evening, buy a ticket for the following day and that was that.
However back in August with the issue of the new pound coins the machines were updated and the new software did not allow you to prepay for a ticket either by machine or
online. This has meant that since then I have to make sure I'm up at eight every Saturday morning to buy a ticket. I did write to the council to complain and they said they would
chase up the contractors to get the software changed back as this was not acceptable. To date this has not been done and as such today my worse fears were realised as I
overslept and by time I went to pay for my ticket I had already received a PCN. This is by apcoa so I'm assuming they are acting for the council?

Now I'll hold my hand up and agree I didn't have a ticket for the time the PCN was issued and if needs be I'll pay the fine. However I want to make a complaint because the
software still hadn't been updated which would have allowed me to buy the ticket at the time I parked the car. I still have a copy of the e-mails between me and Forest of Dean
council relating to this.

Before I do fill in the challenge I would just like to ask for any advice in regards of what might be best to say and more importantly what not to say.
Also had this been the council itself I would have simply made the challenge but because it is an outside company and I know that sometimes there are issues surrounding them
so how 'legit' is this PCN. I've heard stories of additional charges afterwards so I'm worried about contacting them and giving them my address details.

Any advice welcome and thanks.








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John U.K.
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 12:58
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QUOTE
I did write to the council to complain and they said they would
chase up the contractors to get the software changed back as this was not acceptable.

Can you post up a copy of your letter and their reply, please.
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AlexPrince
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 13:51
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This was my e-mail to them on


Complaint

Every Friday I park my car in Newland car park and but a ticket at £1.40 to cover my parking for Saturday. On arriving in the car park at 18.00 Friday evening I attempted to buy
a ticket. However your new machines do not accept money out of hours. I also tried your automated phone payment service. This also does not allow you to purchase a ticket
for the next day.
So where I am happy to pay for the car parking in Coleford (unlike many) I can't do it if your systems won't allow me to buy the ticket.

Their first reply was on 01/08/17 as follows.

Dear ********

I'm sorry you have had these issues, as you say, you should still be able to purchase a ticket outside the charging times. Through this email I shall pass this
onto our parking department in Cotswold Council who should address this for you.

Kind Regards


I then had a follow up email on 03/08/17 as follows

Thank you for reporting this issue to us. I am sorry this has been the case. After making enquiries it does seem the recent upgrade in software has prevented the option of
purchasing tickets outside charging periods. We have therefore requested our contractor amend the software as a matter of urgency to allow this function again. I don't have
a timescale for this to be completed but we will follow this up as it is not acceptable.

Kind regards.

I have heard nothing more since and the software hasn't changed.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 14:06
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Bang to rights on the PCN but serious mitigation in that they changed the system and have yet to "fix" it despite their agreement that it was not acceptable.

I suspect Apcoa (who will initially consider any informal challenges) will ignore or say it is your responsibility to pay.
Whether council will accept at formal stage is anyone's guess.
But if it went to adjudication, they cannot consider mitigation, only whether or not the council considered it properly.

This is a legit PCN btw and neither council nor Apcoa can stick on any charges that are not prescribed in law.
From your point of view, as long as you meet deadlines (on PCN and every notice) you can never pay a penny more then the penalty amount... 50 notes.

I would certainly make a challenge outlining the issues and including the correspondence you had with them re the software.
Not sure on best way to phrase it at the moment, torn between a plea for mercy as they haven't fixed it and it ain't my fault that your system stops me making payment.
See what others think.

I would hammer back at the complaints people mind you, separate to the PCN on the lines of you made a promise, failed to keep it and now look what has happened. May as well use that a PCN has happened to spur them along.


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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 14:38
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Forest of Dean has its own off street parking places order and the contravention given is for an off street car park therefore IMO the enforcement authority shown on the PCN cannot be correct.

Likewise Cotswold District Council has its own off street order if that's where the car park is situated.

Needs investigating further unless I have missed an agency paragraph in the PCN.

Mick
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stamfordman
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 14:39
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Apart from MMV's investigation, I would make a constructive challenge on the lines of you are regular user of the car park and have been diligently working around the restriction on buying an advance ticket by getting up early.

Advise that the council has deemed the system unacceptable in its current state and paste in their message.

However, owing to personal circumstances* you were unable to do so on this date and would appreciate it if the council would exercise its discretion on this occasion.

Also ask for an update on when the council will fix the system, which the council said it would do urgently.

Main problem is time of PCN at 10.40, which is a long time after 8. Are you a resident and council tax payer? I would add that in.


*Don't give details...

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 14:40
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DancingDad
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 14:53
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May help MMV in his checking....
Haven't see a good Enforcement Authority missing on a PCN for years smile.gif

http://www.gloucestershire.gov.uk/media/31..._copy-64117.pdf
Page 19
QUOTE
Enforcement in the Forest of Dean is undertaken by Gloucester City’s enforcement staff on the behalf of the Forest of Dean district council......Lydney, Newent, Coleford and Cinderford are priorities for enforcement...

And this bit confuses
QUOTE
The Forest of Dean does not charge for parking in any of its car parks and they are not subject to any enforcement regime.


Off street orders here
http://www.fdean.gov.uk/residents/environment/car-parking/

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 15:29
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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 15:35
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Here's the off street order:-

http://www.fdean.gov.uk/media/4989/off-str...-order-2012.pdf

From what DD posted this is getting ludicrous if the City of Gloucester act as a further intermediary.

Given the Fosbeary case ACOPA and the County Council are still suspect as regards both documentation and EA responsibilities.

So the OP can accept he was bang to rights, albeit with some excellent mitigation, and pay at the discount or he can risk the full amount, appeal to a tertiary party (Gloucester County Council) and, if rejected, tell an adjudicator how the PCN is a demand from APCOA without any legal justification.

Need more comments on this one.

Mick
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DancingDad
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 15:51
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If it were mine I would be fairly happy to go to adjudication on this, just on what we have found so far.
Certainly can be explored and questions asked.
But we understand and OP (Alexprince) probably does not.

Putting aside the contravention for the moment.
The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/3483/schedule/made
Specifically require the Enforcement Authority to be on the PCN.
The Enforcement Authority (or at least the District Council who raised the parking places order) is The Forest of Dean
Normally that would make them the Enforcement Authority.
I can't see their name or logo anywhere on the PCN.
So unless there is something that makes Gloucestershire the Enforcement Authority, the PCN fails in one of the basics and must be cancelled.
Given that Gloucestershire only say they are acting on behalf of......
This must IMO be put into any challenge from word go with a specific request that they (whoever is considering the challenge) details the authority they have and how Forest of Dean discharges their duty.

This also leads into the Fosbeary case which MMV mentions. Which doesn't need to be mentioned at the moment but basically, Gloucestershire were hammered for not supervising their contractors (or at least not being able to show) and thus failing in their duty to deal with PCNs.
This would seem to be one step further in that Forest of Dean seem to have chucked their duty over the fence to Gloucestershire.

Right pigs ear in other words

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 15:54
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John U.K.
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 16:20
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Are APCOA savvy enough to not want this to go further if comprehensively challenged?

DD'a report is for 2009-2010
and
Page 10
QUOTE
5.4 Off street parking
Car parks are provided free of charge at locations throughout the Forest of Dean district to improve
access to local amenities and to encourage visitors throughout the Forest of Dean District.To further
improve our parking facilities the district undertook an expansion to the Coleford town centre car park. By demolishing
some nearby buildings, it was possible to increase the number of spaces in the car park from 40 to 110. All of our other facilities
remain unchanged. The possibility of charging on street is under consideration at member level.
The Forest of Dean does not charge for parking in any of its car parks and they are not subject to any enforcement regime.


Appears contradicted by the table on page 19 of the same Report sad.gif

Later Reports do not seem to say much about the Forest of Dean, however there is this from the 2013-14 Report:

QUOTE
Gloucester City, and the Forest of Dean councils continue to have responsibility for enforcement in their
areas until September 2014, when they too will become the county council’s responsibility. Therefore figures
are not provided here for the number of PCNs issued in these areas.


and from the 2010-2011 Report
QUOTE
5.4 Off street parking
• The off street parking offers facilities for the disabled and also mother and child spaces in the main towns. All main town car parks also offer toilet facilities nearby. Users are allowed to park for unlimited time in all car parks.
• We have offered approximately 100 spaces at Bank Street, Coleford on a temporary basis while we await redevelopment of this site. All car parks have benefited from major improvement works to address Health and Safety and DDA issues.
There are plans to introduce parking charges for off street parking, which will be dependant on Council approval.


Some reports appear to be missing
http://www.gloucestershire.gov.uk/roads-pa...ort-on-parking/
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AlexPrince
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 16:39
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 14:53) *
May help MMV in his checking....
Haven't see a good Enforcement Authority missing on a PCN for years smile.gif

http://www.gloucestershire.gov.uk/media/31..._copy-64117.pdf
Page 19
QUOTE
Enforcement in the Forest of Dean is undertaken by Gloucester City’s enforcement staff on the behalf of the Forest of Dean district council......Lydney, Newent, Coleford and Cinderford are priorities for enforcement...

And this bit confuses
QUOTE
The Forest of Dean does not charge for parking in any of its car parks and they are not subject to any enforcement regime.


Off street orders here
http://www.fdean.gov.uk/residents/environment/car-parking/



That looks like an old report. Payment for parking in the Forest of Dean carparks came in just a couple of years ago.

http://www.fdean.gov.uk/residents/environment/car-parking/

Looking at this on the FOD council page it does seem that they have given 'control' of the car parks to Apcoa.

I am tempted to fight as its not so much about the fine but because they hadn't done what was promised which in the long run resulted in the ticket.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 17:07
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QUOTE (AlexPrince @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 16:39) *
........Looking at this on the FOD council page it does seem that they have given 'control' of the car parks to Apcoa.
..........


I know it is being pedantic but they cannot give control to Apcoa.
They can sub-contract enforcement but must retain control.

What I am trying to work out is whether they can give control to Gloucestershire County Council.
I don't think they can but may be wrong.
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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 17:14
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OP-- which car park in Coleford?

Mick
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AlexPrince
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 17:23
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Newland Street.
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cp8759
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 17:42
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QUOTE (AlexPrince @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 16:39) *
I am tempted to fight as its not so much about the fine but because they hadn't done what was promised which in the long run resulted in the ticket.

I would suggest this should be straightforward: From the PCN itself, there is no way of determining who the enforcement authority is, and this is a mandatory requirement for the PCN to be valid. Nowhere on the PCN does it say "Gloucestershire County Council" or "Forest of Dean District Council" so there's a pretty straightforward procedural impropriety.

Sure, the ticket says "Gloucestershire Parking", but "Gloucestershire" is not the name of an enforcement authority. After all, I could set up a private company called "Gloucestershire Parking Limited" and put "Gloucestershire Parking" on all the company's paperwork.


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AlexPrince
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 21:00
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So just to be clear the best course of action for me to start with is to make an informal challenge on the online form on the grounds that the PCN does not state the enforcement
authority. Plus the fact that the software for the machine was suppose, to be updated, which would have allowed me to purchase a ticket at the time of parking, but they have
failed to do so in a reasonable time.

Also to write another e-mail to the council about the machines not being update as promised and thus this has resulted in getting a ticket.

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cp8759
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 21:18
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QUOTE (AlexPrince @ Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 21:00) *
So just to be clear the best course of action for me to start with is to make an informal challenge on the online form on the grounds that the PCN does not state the enforcement
authority. Plus the fact that the software for the machine was suppose, to be updated, which would have allowed me to purchase a ticket at the time of parking, but they have
failed to do so in a reasonable time.

Also to write another e-mail to the council about the machines not being update as promised and thus this has resulted in getting a ticket.

I think you have two grounds of appeal here, the PCN does not state the name of the enforcement authority (as required by paragraph 1(b) of the schedule to The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007), and a flaw in the parking meter software made it impossible for you to purchase a ticket.


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stamfordman
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 21:28
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looking at:

http://www.fdean.gov.uk/residents/environment/car-parking

there seem to be inconsistencies. It says you need to pay 7am to 6pm Monday to Saturday at Newland Street.

but you can also pay by phone, but: Please call 0345 520 7007, Monday to Friday 8am - 8pm and Saturday 8am - 4pm

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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 22:03
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3(2)(b)(ii) if the appeals regs is also missing in any form that conveys the requirement of the regs.

So 3 points the contravention did not occur, you could not make payment due to a fault the council are aware of.

PI the enforcement authority are not identified

PI the reg above not been complied with

Happy to put together a draft for you in the morning if you wish. It would be my advice to go in quite hard as it will be dealt with by APCOA. Let them know a simple fob off will not chase you away


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AlexPrince
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 00:04
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@ Stamfordman. The sign for the car park is clear 8am to 6pm. This goes for the other car parks in Coleford as well so the times on the webpage are wrong.
I was talking to my father yesterday about it and he too couldn't pay for his ticket in another Coleford carpark when he arrived at 7.50 to do shopping.

@Pastmybest. That would be fantastic. Thank you very much.
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