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Overstaying but NTK received late & no response
SpanglyChicken
post Sun, 17 Jan 2021 - 00:26
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Hi, total newbie here but have read through the stickies and hoping for some advice. Received a NTK following an alleged overstay of 45 odd minutes by the driver in a local private car park - operated by CP Plus. Alleged overstay was on 14th Dec. NTK was apparently dated 23rd Dec but wasn't received until 31st Dec, due to, I imagine, the usual Christmas delays with the post. Stupidly, I didn't keep the postmarked envelope to prove this, and subsequently mislaid the original document. Emailed CP Plus via their website on 7th Jan as keeper (no driver name supplied) asking for a copy of the NTK. Their autoresponse email acknowledges receipt of my email and clearly states that further action has been put on hold, and to wait to hear from them within 14 days (but certainly no later than 35 days!) for a response.

In the meantime the 2nd NTK with the upgraded charge (of £100, up from the reduction of £50) dated 11th Jan has arrived, so clearly "further action" has not been put on hold!




If someone could please take a look at the NTK here and let me know if I have any comeback under PoFA given the information provided on the document, the late receipt of the NTK (although I appreciate this will have been assumed to be the 28th Dec, Christmas post notwithstanding) and the fact that their actions are not reflecting the info in the email response I received, I'd be incredibly grateful.

Have also written to the stores the driver shopped in with evidence of spend, asking for their assistance in getting the ticket cancelled given the extra time required to shop currently due to Covid restrictions such as extra queuing etc but not holding out much hope.

Thanks!

This post has been edited by SpanglyChicken: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 - 00:50
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post Sun, 17 Jan 2021 - 00:26
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Ahelpinggand
post Sun, 17 Jan 2021 - 08:30
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If no driver ID has been given and your date calculation is corrext then the following can be sent

Wait for others to check because I can't load the pic properly

Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.


This post has been edited by Ahelpinggand: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 - 08:41
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ostell
post Sun, 17 Jan 2021 - 09:15
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You've scrubbed off all the dates but from what you said the event was the 14th, the ticket was sent on the 23rd, 2 working days to deliver takes it to 29th so that's 15 days on their own paperwork. Whoops. (28th was a bank holiday this year)
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Sheffield Dave
post Sun, 17 Jan 2021 - 11:34
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I don't understand why you asked them for a copy of the NtK after you had just received the NtK.
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SpanglyChicken
post Sun, 17 Jan 2021 - 12:16
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[quote name='Sheffield Dave' date='Sun, 17 Jan 2021 - 11:34' post='1611762']
I don't understand why you asked them for a copy of the NtK after you had just received

It's because I had mislaid the original NTK, as per post above (sorry if that was unclear). Stupidly I think it went out with the recycling
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SpanglyChicken
post Sun, 17 Jan 2021 - 12:35
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sun, 17 Jan 2021 - 09:15) *
You've scrubbed off all the dates but from what you said the event was the 14th, the ticket was sent on the 23rd, 2 working days to deliver takes it to 29th so that's 15 days on their own paperwork. Whoops. (28th was a bank holiday this year)


Yep that's correct - event on the 14th, ntk dated 23rd, then I emailed 8th Jan explaining ntk had been mislaid and could they resend a copy. Their response is below. I then received the 2nd demand for the increased sum dated 11th Jan, so what they have written in the email autoresponse hasn't been.honoured.


"Further action on your Parking Charge Notice has been put on hold - please wait to hear from us.

We aim to write back to you within 14 working days, but certainly, no more than 35 days after your representation is received.

Please note that we are currently receiving a high volume of correspondence. While we are making every effort to respond to appeals in as timely a manner as possible, this process will be greatly assisted by you refraining from sending follow-up emails before you have received our response. The fact that you have received this auto-response means that we have received your appeal, and will answer it as soon as possible. You will never be asked to pay a charge at a higher rate due to any delay on our part, and will always be given the opportunity to settle it at the rate it was at when we received your appeal."

So I wonder if there is grounds to report them for not honouring their own t&cs?

Thanks for the info, I hadn't realised 28th was a Bank Holiday. I thought the count started from the day AFTER the event so 15th Dec? Which means as you say it should have been delivered by on or by 28th, and I know they are allowed 2 working days after posting to assume receipt...but obviously with Christmas postal delays this could never have happened, even though there were technically 2 working days in between (24th and 26th)?

Just seems too good to be true if they've ballsed up on their own dates! Will POPLA uphold this?

Thanks very much for your advice.
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ostell
post Sun, 17 Jan 2021 - 14:59
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Nope, they have taken your request for the original PCN as an appeal.

POPLA will (or should) uphold a failure of POFA

Apart from the time 9 (4), that letter fails:

No period of [parking 9 (2) (a)
No statement of driver liability, 9 (2) (b)
No invitation to keeper 9 (2) (e)
No statment of keeper liability 9 (2) (f)

But that's not the original so a SAR to them to get the missing paperwork.

This post has been edited by ostell: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 - 15:09
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SpanglyChicken
post Sun, 17 Jan 2021 - 16:50
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Thanks. Yep the email address is titled Appeals but there's no other contact for them! Needless to say no one ever answers their phone-lines...

Appreciate the advice. I'll send an SAR but would you say it's worth me sending the standard reply as per above in the meantime anyway? Can't imagine that this 2nd notice is worded significantly differently from their first. I'm tempted to include a copy of their email response and say that as they've failed to honour putting my situation on hold as per their own correspondence, then I'll be declining to engage with them any further. By their own terms I shouldn't have received the second NTK dated 3 days afterwards!

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ostell
post Sun, 17 Jan 2021 - 20:17
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Send in that appeal and the SAR as you may need the info later. Quite often the reminder does not contain all the required info.

Don't take them to task yet about their misunderstanding
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The Rookie
post Mon, 18 Jan 2021 - 09:15
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QUOTE (SpanglyChicken @ Sun, 17 Jan 2021 - 16:50) *
Needless to say no one ever answers their phone-lines...

Good, because you should NEVER be phoning them, in writing so you don't give anything away and have a record of your exact communications.


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SpanglyChicken
post Mon, 18 Jan 2021 - 13:28
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 18 Jan 2021 - 09:15) *
QUOTE (SpanglyChicken @ Sun, 17 Jan 2021 - 16:50) *
Needless to say no one ever answers their phone-lines...

Good, because you should NEVER be phoning them, in writing so you don't give anything away and have a record of your exact communications.


Thanks The Rookie - yep, I totally get that now. I called them to request a copy of the NTK but now I'm glad I didn't as I have their bothced response in writing instead!
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SpanglyChicken
post Mon, 18 Jan 2021 - 13:38
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sun, 17 Jan 2021 - 20:17) *
Send in that appeal and the SAR as you may need the info later. Quite often the reminder does not contain all the required info.

Don't take them to task yet about their misunderstanding


Thank you SO much Ostell, this is really helpful. I've drafted an email as per the below adding in some wording from the MSE forums and including your advice to ask for the SAR. I would be so grateful if you and/or any of the knowledgeable folks on here would have a look. It's longer than the suggestion above as I wanted to be fairly aggressive from the get-go, but if you think this is the wrong approach please do say!

(By misunderstanding I assume you mean them thinking my previousl correspondance was an appeal?... I haven't mentioned this but have included a bit about them sending a 2nd NTK when they shouldn't have done as I thought this may make it a bit stronger overall? I believe it skirts around the issue sufficiently to keep the £50 charge in play should this go to POPLA, which I guess was your thinking - but will bow to your judgement on this!):

Dear Sirs,

I have received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

Having taken advice, I can see that you have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. Your invoice was dated 23rd December 2020 and not received by me, the keeper, until the 1st of January 2021. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so. No assumptions can be drawn as to the driver on this or any other date.
You have also failed to address or respond to my email to you dated 8th January 2021 requesting a copy of the original document. Your email autoresponse received by return quotes the following:
“Further action on your Parking Charge Notice has been put on hold - please wait to hear from us.
The fact that you have received this auto-response means that we have received your appeal, and will answer it as soon as possible. You will never be asked to pay a charge at a higher rate due to any delay on our part, and will always be given the opportunity to settle it at the rate it was at when we received your appeal.”
This written contract has not been upheld at your end as I have subsequently received a second demand for payment dated 11th January 2021. This subsequent communication also fails to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012 namely, but not limited to, clauses 9 (2) (a), 9 (2) (b), 9 (2) (e) and 9 (2) (f), as well as contravening your own statement above.
On both counts I as the keeper of the vehicle therefore decline your offer to pay your invoice. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your conduct to your client landowner, whom I’m sure will be displeased to hear that shoppers in this location are being harassed in this manner, potentially discouraging them from visiting at a time when their retail clients on site are struggling more than ever with footfall and income.
In addition I request under the terms of the Data Protection Act 2018/General Data Protection Regulations (GDPR) ) that you supply the data from your records currently held about me that I am entitled to under data protection law. If you need any more information from me to confirm my identity please let me know as soon as possible. It may be helpful for you to know that data protection law requires you to respond to a request for data within one calendar month.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from the supply of the above information plus confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.
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SpanglyChicken
post Tue, 19 Jan 2021 - 17:29
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Hi, any feedback on the above would be much appreciated before I send. Thank you.
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Ahelpinggand
post Tue, 19 Jan 2021 - 21:46
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I would go with the plain and simple appeal above.

Save the detail for POPLA appeal

CP plus do have form (along with highview) for cancelling when they see Ostells template appeal

Also you can't make an SAR on an appeal, you run the risk of them either treating it only as an SAR or ignoring the SAR and treating as only an appeal

They must be separated

This post has been edited by Ahelpinggand: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 - 21:47
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