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Late PCN from NCP at Gatwick
pcnthrowaway123
post Mon, 13 Nov 2023 - 13:37
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I just received this PCN today for a drop-off at Gatwick in early June.

The driver thought they'd paid for this, but they think there was some sort of mix-up. The vehicle made two trips to Gatwick, a week apart.

The parking fee was paid online after the first trip, and then an autopay account was set up for a second trip. This account was never charged for anything through autopay for the second trip (both the card and car were set up correctly), so it is possible that the first payment that was made was actually used to cover the second trip and not the first (otherwise I'm getting another PCN in a few days...).

Nevertheless, it has taken five months for this PCN to arrive. Citizens advice says that there is a 14 day limit to issue the notice, but only if it mentions the Protections of Freedoms Act (which it does not). I've seen posts here with people using the 14 day window to appeal NCP notices, despite the notices not mentioning PoFA, so I'm a little confused.

There is a bank statement showing the first payment was made, but no receipts. How should I go about appealing this - on the mixed up payment, or the lateness of the notice being issued?

This post has been edited by pcnthrowaway123: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 - 15:26
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post Mon, 13 Nov 2023 - 13:37
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The Rookie
post Mon, 13 Nov 2023 - 13:42
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IMMEDIATELY do an EDIT on that post.

The keeper (who the notice is addressed to) is not liable, only the driver so don't give away the relationship between the two.

Tell us what 'the driver' did that day with no I, we, he or even the dog, you have the invoice addressed to you as keeper and will deal with it as such. Find a recent ACPOA/NCP airport thread and use the 'no PoFA' appeal in that, post here to confirm before sending.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 - 13:42


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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pcnthrowaway123
post Mon, 13 Nov 2023 - 15:40
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 13 Nov 2023 - 13:42) *
IMMEDIATELY do an EDIT on that post.

The keeper (who the notice is addressed to) is not liable, only the driver so don't give away the relationship between the two.

Tell us what 'the driver' did that day with no I, we, he or even the dog, you have the invoice addressed to you as keeper and will deal with it as such. Find a recent ACPOA/NCP airport thread and use the 'no PoFA' appeal in that, post here to confirm before sending.


Thanks, done.

You mean this template?

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

The land in question is subject to byelaws and as such it is not relevant land for the purpose of schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, therefore there can be no keeper liability.

Even if it were relevant land you have failed to comply with the requirements of the same Act namely, but not limited to, failing to give notice of keeper liability in the format prescribed by section 9 (2) (f). You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

Even if (which is not the case) your notice did contain the statutory warning, it was served after the end of the “relevant period” as defined in POFA

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or your debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records.



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Redx
post Mon, 13 Nov 2023 - 16:30
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The advice that CA gave is wrong, especially in this case where schedule 4 of pofa 2012 doesn't apply, due to Bylaws at airports

The parking company have 6 months to obtain keeper details and one month to get the pcn to the Keeper, which they have done, they can all go down that route if they wish
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The Rookie
post Mon, 13 Nov 2023 - 16:38
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Given it took 5 months to arrive, I'd check the address on your V5C registration document is correct, or if you don't have the V5c maybe you aren't the registered keeper (and the 14 days couldn't apply for obvious reasons).


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Jlc
post Mon, 13 Nov 2023 - 17:19
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QUOTE (Redx @ Mon, 13 Nov 2023 - 16:30) *
The advice that CA gave is wrong, especially in this case where schedule 4 of pofa 2012 doesn't apply, due to Bylaws at airports

The parking company have 6 months to obtain keeper details and one month to get the pcn to the Keeper, which they have done, they can all go down that route if they wish

Yes, poor advice from CA.

It's only the respective Code of Practice that puts an 'artificial' time limit on accessing the DVLA (my highlight):

22.8 While we have an expectation that operators will seek to use the POFA legislation, it is appreciated that there will be occasions where this might not be possible. If a non-POFA Notice to Keeper is being issued it must be sent
out as soon as possible and no later than 7 months after the original parking event.


But they'd need a pretty convincing reason why it wasn't sent 'as soon as possible'!

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 - 17:19


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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pcnthrowaway123
post Mon, 13 Nov 2023 - 20:21
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Everything is correct with the v5c/address.

So am I understanding correctly that the 14 day limit doesn't apply here?
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Jlc
post Mon, 13 Nov 2023 - 21:26
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QUOTE (pcnthrowaway123 @ Mon, 13 Nov 2023 - 20:21) *
So am I understanding correctly that the 14 day limit doesn't apply here?

The 14 days only applies if they are seeking keeper liability. (Amongst other requirements)

They can only pursue the driver. But have written to the keeper……


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 14 Nov 2023 - 09:22
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QUOTE (pcnthrowaway123 @ Mon, 13 Nov 2023 - 20:21) *
So am I understanding correctly that the 14 day limit doesn't apply here?

Wrong question....

The 14 day limit never applies to an invoice sent to a person who incurred the alleged debt, ever.

The 14 day limit applies where a parking company (uniquely to parking) seeks to hold a third party (here it's the keeper) liable for the alleged debt owed, using Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (aka PoFA).

As there are bylaws in place at the airport then PoFA can NEVER make the keeper liable (as it's not 'relevant land' for the purposes of PoFA) so the 14 day question is moot as compliance or non compliance makes no difference.

The driver may be liable (and there are still other defences such as the poor signage) the keeper (as keeper) can NEVER be liable.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Tue, 14 Nov 2023 - 12:04


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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pcnthrowaway123
post Tue, 14 Nov 2023 - 11:59
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OK, I think I understand now - thanks for your patience. Am I OK to proceed with the template I posted above then?
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The Rookie
post Tue, 14 Nov 2023 - 12:03
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Yes, that appeal is fine.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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