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PCN. Did not receive initial letter, or parking ticket.
bella88
post Tue, 31 Jan 2012 - 00:29
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Hello,

A while ago I received a letter from the council saying that I received a parking fine on 8/11/2011 and did not pay the reduced fee within 14 days. This "second" letter was posted on 13/12/2011.

There was no parking ticket when I got to my car, but after checking photos on the PCN website, there is one there. This makes me wonder whether someone removed it (I have seen people do this before).

I contacted the council the day I received this letter to tell them there was no ticket on my car and that I did not receive the intial letter. I am waiting for a reply (they said they are behind so I have been waiting a long time). The only thing I have been told is that my fine has been frozen for the time being.

Here is a scan of the letter:

Scanned Letter

This is what it says:

"Pentalty Charge Notice (ID) was served on 08/11/2011 by Civil Enforcement officer (ID) who had reason to believe that on 08/11/2011 at (time)the above vehicle, was Parked on a special enforcement area adjacent to a dropped footway (in location). To date full payment has not been received. Details of the penalty charge are as follows:"




I would appreciate your opinions.

Thank you for your time!

This post has been edited by bella88: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 - 00:37
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bella88
post Fri, 10 Feb 2012 - 21:14
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I'm sorry for getting so confused over all of this.

I was told that the fine had been frozen, so if it turns out that the email wasn't a formal representation or anything, what is the other possibility that it could be? And if there is something else it could be, is there timeframe for them to respond within?

I phoned the council as I wanted an immediate response as I didn't know if my situation counted as an appeal and thought it was unfair that I had to pay the full price when I never knew I had a fine. I guess I shouldn't have assumed that the people who work in the parking fines department actually know about parking fines... sad.gif

I agree that the kerb wasn't lowered enough (and I wouldn't have parked there if it was visible enough), but I found this website too late to know it could be a challenge.


QUOTE
1 Tell the council that 56 days have passed and it must be cancelled
2 Put in a proper challenge that they will probably refuse as late but might still mess up. The OP has nothing to lose at adjudication and the council may back down rather than explain their actions
3 Do nothing and see if the council issue a charge certificate before responding to the email. Argue procedural impropriety at adjudication - the OP wasn't given the opportunity to pay at the standard rate because she was still waiting to hear about payment at the discount rate.


Thank you. I am considering these.
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Gan
post Fri, 10 Feb 2012 - 22:31
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Don't do anything until the experts have had a chance to comment
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bella88
post Fri, 10 Feb 2012 - 22:38
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QUOTE (Gan @ Fri, 10 Feb 2012 - 22:31) *
Don't do anything until the experts have had a chance to comment



Okay. I thought people might be getting fed up of me, so thought I should do something lol
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hcandersen
post Sat, 11 Feb 2012 - 11:41
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Make your formal reps now - don't wait. You may make reps at any time, the council may disregard after 28 days. But it's not obliged to and if you set out the issues it may be inclined not to. But this shows, as Southpaw keeps stating, an attempt on your part to re-engage with the legal process. IMO you cannot lose.

Make sure your letter makes it clear as to the key preceding events in respect of the process (only the process, not the issues) so that they can cross reference. Make it clear that in your opinion your earlier correspondence was formal reps but you've been advised that this might not have been made clear, hence this letter as confirmation i.e. if they didn't take your earlier correspondence as formal reps, this is.

HCA
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bella88
post Wed, 29 Feb 2012 - 11:53
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Hello!

I finally received a reply from the council. I have uploaded the document here:

Reply Page 1: Reply Page 2: Reply Page 3 (Just a photo): Reply Page 4 (Just a photo):

In short, they have allowed me to pay at the discount rate within 14 days. However, they have taken over 56 days to reply. I called the council to ask whether my first email was considered a formal challenge. She told me she "assumed so". I asked if there's anyone who would know and since she gave another vague answere, I told her I need to know because if a formal challenge isn't replied to within 56 days, it's deemed that the notice does not apply anymore. She told me that's only a guidline. It's not a law. Is that true?

I'm not sure what they mean by "I can see that you are raising a point that we answered in our previous letter".

And to follow up with some previous posts about not having scanned all my documents. I have finally got my scanner fixed! So here they are (including the page already scanned):

Page 1 (Details) Page 2 (Payment slip and how to make a representation): Page 3 (What happens next?): Page 4 (Formal representation form):

This post has been edited by bella88: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 - 12:06
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bama
post Wed, 29 Feb 2012 - 12:19
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QUOTE
She told me that's only a guidline. It's not a law. Is that true?


I really really hope you got her name and recorded the call.
always record calls to council parking depts

of course it was pure bollocks.
you think the council drone was right as we have all been misleading you ?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/9/made



--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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bella88
post Wed, 29 Feb 2012 - 16:31
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QUOTE (bama @ Wed, 29 Feb 2012 - 12:19) *
QUOTE
She told me that's only a guidline. It's not a law. Is that true?


I really really hope you got her name and recorded the call.
always record calls to council parking depts

of course it was pure bollocks.
you think the council drone was right as we have all been misleading you ?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/9/made


Thanks for your reply. I'll make the same phone call again to see if someone else says something different, but I cannot record a phone call with my land line. I was told this time that it is a formal challenge. It took a few times asking to get her to actually say 'yes' though... Again, I was given vague answers.

Do you what I should do now? They considered it a formal challenge, and they didn't reply within 56 days. Would that mean they have to cancel the entire fine, or they just had to accept my discount request?
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bama
post Wed, 29 Feb 2012 - 19:07
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don't pay FFS
when the council exceeds the 56 day deadline they are deemed to have accepted your reps as per the linked legislation
that means you win.

provided you are sure formal reps went in on the date you said and that the 56 days has elapsed
then consider sending them a
"Notice of failure to comply with a statutory requirement by xxxxx Council"

Formal Representations to the Notice to Owner for PCN number xxnnnnnn were received by the Authority
on nn/nn/nnnn
No response from the Authority has been received by the Owner.

As per "The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007"
Section 9 (6) (a) to wit
"(6) Where an authority fails to comply with paragraph (2) before the end of the period of 56 days mentioned there—

(a)
it shall be deemed to have accepted the representations and to have served notice to that effect under paragraph (2)(b); and"

The Authority is now deemed by statute to have accepted my Formal Representations

signed

xx.xxxx


----------------------
its not a letter, no dear sir, no your yours etc at the end

if you want real fun go on the council website and see of they are still accepting payment for the PCN.
if they are I can an add a nice paragraph about unlawful revenue and failure of statutory duties. smile.gif
so check the website now and let me know smile.gif



You could, if you want copy it to e TEC with cover letter telling the TEC that any request made the Council to further the case namely to issue a Charge Certificate or request a Warrant would be unlawful.

This post has been edited by bama: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 - 19:11


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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bella88
post Wed, 29 Feb 2012 - 19:38
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QUOTE (bama @ Wed, 29 Feb 2012 - 19:07) *
don't pay FFS
when the council exceeds the 56 day deadline they are deemed to have accepted your reps as per the linked legislation
that means you win.

provided you are sure formal reps went in on the date you said and that the 56 days has elapsed
then consider sending them a
"Notice of failure to comply with a statutory requirement by xxxxx Council"

Formal Representations to the Notice to Owner for PCN number xxnnnnnn were received by the Authority
on nn/nn/nnnn
No response from the Authority has been received by the Owner.

As per "The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007"
Section 9 (6) (a) to wit
"(6) Where an authority fails to comply with paragraph (2) before the end of the period of 56 days mentioned there—

(a)
it shall be deemed to have accepted the representations and to have served notice to that effect under paragraph (2)(b); and"

The Authority is now deemed by statute to have accepted my Formal Representations

signed

xx.xxxx


----------------------
its not a letter, no dear sir, no your yours etc at the end

if you want real fun go on the council website and see of they are still accepting payment for the PCN.
if they are I can an add a nice paragraph about unlawful revenue and failure of statutory duties. smile.gif
so check the website now and let me know smile.gif



You could, if you want copy it to e TEC with cover letter telling the TEC that any request made the Council to further the case namely to issue a Charge Certificate or request a Warrant would be unlawful.


Thank you so much. You have been really helpful.

I looked on the website, and I'm still able to make the payment online! I will start writing the letter after your next reply. So, even if my appeal was only for £35, not for the cancellation, the appeal automatically winning after 56 days makes all fines invalid- even though my appeal was to pay the reduced fee? (Just double checking I haven't misunderstood before it's too late).
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bama
post Wed, 29 Feb 2012 - 19:59
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Hold fast !
due to this post

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...st&p=669584

I have reviewed the thread.

and my head is spinning.
What you consider reps to probably wasn't ! the 56 day clock may not be expired
but your 28 day clock may have !!

Even your first post confuses me, 'first letter' and 'second letter'
not letters at all..

please lay out the time line
date of alleged contravention
and what was received and when
and exact text of what was sent and when
in date order.



--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 29 Feb 2012 - 20:27
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QUOTE
I finally received a reply from the council


A reply to what? We don't know what you wrote, do we?

HCA
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bella88
post Wed, 29 Feb 2012 - 20:39
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Okay. Here is everything in order:

15th December 2012:

Received




Sent email:
QUOTE
Hello,
I received a penalty charge notice, which said:

"The owner of the vehicle was allowed 14 days to pay a discount sum".

There was no ticket on my car and I did not receive an initial letter. I was wondering if I would be able to pay the discount sum now that I have been made aware of this fine for my first time.

Regards,

My Name.
PCN No:


Received:

QUOTE
This is an automated response from Chelmsford Borough Council Parking Services and may not apply to all of our customers. If you are a resident applying for a permit this can now be done on line at www.chelmsford.gov.uk

If your email was sent in order to make a formal challenge against the issuing of a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) please note that:
1.In order to process your challenge, we require the PCN number. This will begin with XP, CF or CP
2.We will respond to you in writing. Therefore we require a full postal address in order to process your challenge. If this was not submitted with your original email, please send these details to us.
3.If you have challenged within 14 days of receiving the Notice, the Penalty Charge will be frozen at a reduced amount until the enforcement authority responds. Please note, we are unable to freeze the charge at the reduced amount until we have received both the PCN number and the postal address. The reduced amount will be either £25 or £35; this sum will be stated on the front of the PCN.
4.You will be notified in writing of our decision. If your challenge is accepted, the charge will be cancelled. If the challenge is not accepted the enforcement authority will decide whether to re-offer the 14 day discount period dependent on the circumstances of the individual case.
5.Further details including the date, the time, the location and the reason for issuing the PCN can be found on the ticket. The reverse of the ticket also includes details about challenging the PCN, further contact details and methods of payment.

NB. Please retain this email response as acknowledgement that we have received your challenge and we will respond in full in due course.

Chelmsford is bidding for city status. Please pledge your support here.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The contents of this message should not be taken as necessarily being the views, opinions, policies or procedures of Chelmsford Borough Council and does not give rise to any contract, undertaking or agreement. E-mail is not a secure form of communication. Whilst every effort has been made to ensure that this message has been correctly addressed, it and any associated files may contain privileged or confidential information or details intended only for the sender and intended recipient. If this transmission is received by anyone other than the intended recipient please delete the message and any associated files and destroy any printed copy. Please notify the sender by a return e-mail or, if known to you, telephone the sender and make them aware that the transmission has been received by someone other than the intended recipient.


Sent Email:

QUOTE
Hello,

I received a penalty charge notice, which said:

"The owner of the vehicle was allowed 14 days to pay a discount sum".

There was no ticket on my car and I did not receive an initial letter. I was wondering if I would be able to pay the discount sum now that I have been made aware of this fine for my first time.

Regards,

My Name

PCN No: PCN Number

Address:
My address


Received:

QUOTE
This is an automated response from Chelmsford Borough Council Parking Services and may not apply to all of our customers. If you are a resident applying for a permit this can now be done on line at www.chelmsford.gov.uk

If your email was sent in order to make a formal challenge against the issuing of a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) please note that:
1.In order to process your challenge, we require the PCN number. This will begin with XP, CF or CP
2.We will respond to you in writing. Therefore we require a full postal address in order to process your challenge. If this was not submitted with your original email, please send these details to us.
3.If you have challenged within 14 days of receiving the Notice, the Penalty Charge will be frozen at a reduced amount until the enforcement authority responds. Please note, we are unable to freeze the charge at the reduced amount until we have received both the PCN number and the postal address. The reduced amount will be either £25 or £35; this sum will be stated on the front of the PCN.
4.You will be notified in writing of our decision. If your challenge is accepted, the charge will be cancelled. If the challenge is not accepted the enforcement authority will decide whether to re-offer the 14 day discount period dependent on the circumstances of the individual case.
5.Further details including the date, the time, the location and the reason for issuing the PCN can be found on the ticket. The reverse of the ticket also includes details about challenging the PCN, further contact details and methods of payment.

NB. Please retain this email response as acknowledgement that we have received your challenge and we will respond in full in due course.

Chelmsford is bidding for city status. Please pledge your support here.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The contents of this message should not be taken as necessarily being the views, opinions, policies or procedures of Chelmsford Borough Council and does not give rise to any contract, undertaking or agreement. E-mail is not a secure form of communication. Whilst every effort has been made to ensure that this message has been correctly addressed, it and any associated files may contain privileged or confidential information or details intended only for the sender and intended recipient. If this transmission is received by anyone other than the intended recipient please delete the message and any associated files and destroy any printed copy. Please notify the sender by a return e-mail or, if known to you, telephone the sender and make them aware that the transmission has been received by someone other than the intended recipient.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This email message has been delivered safely and archived online by Mimecast.
For more information please visit http://www.mimecast.co.uk


Received:

QUOTE
Thank you for your email a full written response will be sent to you.


28th December 2012

Sent Email:

QUOTE
Hello,

I have not received a response by post yet and was just making sure that one has been sent.

Regards,

My Name


Received:

QUOTE
This is an automated response from Chelmsford Borough Council Parking Services and may not apply to all of our customers. If you are a resident applying for a permit this can now be done on line at www.chelmsford.gov.uk

If your email was sent in order to make a formal challenge against the issuing of a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) please note that:
1.In order to process your challenge, we require the PCN number. This will begin with XP, CF or CP
2.We will respond to you in writing. Therefore we require a full postal address in order to process your challenge. If this was not submitted with your original email, please send these details to us.
3.If you have challenged within 14 days of receiving the Notice, the Penalty Charge will be frozen at a reduced amount until the enforcement authority responds. Please note, we are unable to freeze the charge at the reduced amount until we have received both the PCN number and the postal address. The reduced amount will be either £25 or £35; this sum will be stated on the front of the PCN.
4.You will be notified in writing of our decision. If your challenge is accepted, the charge will be cancelled. If the challenge is not accepted the enforcement authority will decide whether to re-offer the 14 day discount period dependent on the circumstances of the individual case.
5.Further details including the date, the time, the location and the reason for issuing the PCN can be found on the ticket. The reverse of the ticket also includes details about challenging the PCN, further contact details and methods of payment.

NB. Please retain this email response as acknowledgement that we have received your challenge and we will respond in full in due course.

Chelmsford is bidding for city status. Please pledge your support here.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The contents of this message should not be taken as necessarily being the views, opinions, policies or procedures of Chelmsford Borough Council and does not give rise to any contract, undertaking or agreement. E-mail is not a secure form of communication. Whilst every effort has been made to ensure that this message has been correctly addressed, it and any associated files may contain privileged or confidential information or details intended only for the sender and intended recipient. If this transmission is received by anyone other than the intended recipient please delete the message and any associated files and destroy any printed copy. Please notify the sender by a return e-mail or, if known to you, telephone the sender and make them aware that the transmission has been received by someone other than the intended recipient.


Received:

QUOTE
The offices are now closed until the 3rd January 2012.


Chelmsford is bidding for city status. Please pledge your support here.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The contents of this message should not be taken as necessarily being the views, opinions, policies or procedures of Chelmsford Borough Council and does not give rise to any contract, undertaking or agreement. E-mail is not a secure form of communication. Whilst every effort has been made to ensure that this message has been correctly addressed, it and any associated files may contain privileged or confidential information or details intended only for the sender and intended recipient. If this transmission is received by anyone other than the intended recipient please delete the message and any associated files and destroy any printed copy. Please notify the sender by a return e-mail or, if known to you, telephone the sender and make them aware that the transmission has been received by someone other than the intended recipient.


3rd January 2012

Received (email)

QUOTE
There is a delay in answering challenges. A response will be sent ASAP.

Sue Paffey
Enforcement Officer
Safer Communities
Chelmsford Borough Council
www.chelmsford.gov.uk
Accredited with the lip Gold Standard


29th Febuary 2012

Received:




I hope that's formatted okay.

This post has been edited by bella88: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 - 20:52
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bella88
post Sat, 3 Mar 2012 - 00:10
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Shall I just pay the fine? I'm concerned about the time limit.
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hcandersen
post Sat, 3 Mar 2012 - 11:55
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What do you want to do?

You started by wanting the opportunity to pay at the discount level and you've now got this.

You were at the location and so did you park adjacent to a dropped kerb? The photos suggest you did.

IMO you would win at adjudication because someone at the council obviously had too much sherry with their Christmas trifle and has made a complete horlicks of the enforcement process. For example, their latest letter (which I detest greatly because it contains what to me is worst the aspect of council replies in that they have not stated the dates of the correspondence to which they are referring; which included the matters that their reply purports to answer; and attempts to cover their a***s with regard to the 56-day time limit) refers to:
i. The future service of a NTO that was in fact served December!
ii. The future implications of not paying the penalty charge within the period prescribed in the NTO, which period expired 6 weeks ago;
ii. Requires you to pay in a different manner to that set out in the NTO i.e. to pay Chelmsford. - there is no such requirement in the NTO which states that you may pay either the enforcement authority or Chelmsford Borough Council acting as its agent.

They're an absolute shower, and it would be good to expose their stupidity at adjudication.

You have plenty of time before the discount period expires and IMO you should write to the council first-class (hand deliver if you're local), email them with the same message to confirm and telephone them after a couple of days to this effect:

Than you for your letter dated ****** in response to my formal representations which were served on you by email dated **** and which were made in response to the Notice to Owner dated **** which was received by me on *****.

Given that I made formal representations in response to a Notice to Owner the enforcement authority was obligated to consider these and to serve notice of its decision no later than 56 days after receipt. As you are aware, the regulations may not be unilaterally extended by you merely because you choose to close your offices. Consequently, given that you acknowledged receipt of my representations on *** Dec you were under a duty to serve notice of your decision by no later than ***. You did not. Your response was dated *****.

Therefore, by virtue of regulation 5(5) of the Appeals regulations you are deemed to have accepted my representations and therefore the penalty charge notice is cancelled.

I await your confirmation.

Your lovingly


Let's test their position. I suggest sending this as soon as possible to give them time to consider their position before the expiry of their new 14-day discount period.

But even if this is too much and you want to pay, I suggest you do it by cheque made payable to Essex County Council, annotated with your PCN no, name and address to Parking Services at the county council's head offices. (as the contravention was on-street, the NTO states that you can pay the enforcement authority OR its agent, and for that matter representations may be made to either - what a shambles)

HCA

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bella88
post Sat, 3 Mar 2012 - 12:15
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 3 Mar 2012 - 11:55) *
What do you want to do?

You started by wanting the opportunity to pay at the discount level and you've now got this.

You were at the location and so did you park adjacent to a dropped kerb? The photos suggest you did.

IMO you would win at adjudication because someone at the council obviously had too much sherry with their Christmas trifle and has made a complete horlicks of the enforcement process. For example, their latest letter (which I detest greatly because it contains what to me is worst the aspect of council replies in that they have not stated the dates of the correspondence to which they are referring; which included the matters that their reply purports to answer; and attempts to cover their a***s with regard to the 56-day time limit) refers to:
i. The future service of a NTO that was in fact served December!
ii. The future implications of not paying the penalty charge within the period prescribed in the NTO, which period expired 6 weeks ago;
ii. Requires you to pay in a different manner to that set out in the NTO i.e. to pay Chelmsford. - there is no such requirement in the NTO which states that you may pay either the enforcement authority or Chelmsford Borough Council acting as its agent.

They're an absolute shower, and it would be good to expose their stupidity at adjudication.

You have plenty of time before the discount period expires and IMO you should write to the council first-class (hand deliver if you're local), email them with the same message to confirm and telephone them after a couple of days to this effect:
....


Thank you so much! I really appreciate that, and also that you told me what to write. I'll write the letter and drop it off at the council on Monday. It would be so nice to not have to pay the fine. I was hoping to give money to my favourite charity, but I can't afford it if I give it to the council mad.gif

This post has been edited by bella88: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 - 12:18
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bella88
post Mon, 12 Mar 2012 - 19:48
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Thank you everyone for all your replies to my many posts! I posted the letter that HCAnderson told me to write and received a reply today. The finehas been cancelled (they wrote the response as if they were ere doing me a favour, but oh well lol). That £30 will now go where I intended it to go!
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