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Merseyflow PCN x 2, Issued two PCN'S, pay up??
Reno182
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 14:08
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Hi all,

I was pointed to this website by a friend of mine and I am hoping someone can help us out here with this.

We travelled to John Lennon Airport on the 30th May from Manchester across the now known toll bridge, now at the time we seen signs saying toll ahead or something to that effect so proceeded to travel in said direction.

We commented at the time what a nice bridge it was! but we never seen a toll booth in order to pay, now we didn't think anything of it at the time but today (letter dated 8th June/11 June) we received two PCN letters ordering us to pay 2 x 40 quid reduced to 2 x 20 If payed within 14 days.

What are our options? Do we just cough up?? we really didnt see any signs saying we'd be fined this amount nor did we see any clear signs saying the method of payment clearly in moving traffic!

The first time flying from Liverpool airport so the roads were unknown to us.

We feel hard done by to be honest and feel really peeved off, don't mind paying the 2 quid toll fee x 2 but to be charged 44 quid is excessive in our view.

Any thoughts please?

Many many thanks.

Reno 182
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post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 14:08
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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 14:55
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Upload the PCNs, redacting just your name and address. Use a website like imgur.com to host the pictures.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Reno182
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 15:14
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 15:55) *
Upload the PCNs, redacting just your name and address. Use a website like imgur.com to host the pictures.


Here they are, looks standard.

https://imgur.com/6nSdrH7

https://imgur.com/BM06Fnm
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stamfordman
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 15:16
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Think this has been fixed by your date.

https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/m...teway-decision/
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Reno182
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 15:35
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 16:16) *


I take it there is no point in appealing this then? what a odd toll this one is, never known anything like it! we expected a toll booth to pay but nothing, no mention of the hefty penalty charges either that we could see.
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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 15:38
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The new order is here: https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/d...-Order-2018.pdf

There's a flaw in the PCN, it mis-states the 14 day discount period. The period should be the period of 14 days beginning with the date of service (making the date of service day 1), but it says "within 14 days", which makes the date of service day 0, effectively adding a day. This could be prejudicial.

Upload the back of the PCN, there may be further flaws.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Reno182
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 15:46
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 16:38) *
The new order is here: https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/d...-Order-2018.pdf

There's a flaw in the PCN, it mis-states the 14 day discount period. The period should be the period of 14 days beginning with the date of service (making the date of service day 1), but it says "within 14 days", which makes the date of service day 0, effectively adding a day. This could be prejudicial.

Upload the back of the PCN, there may be further flaws.


Thanks cp8759, really appreciate your time and effort I am resigning myself to pay it, looks like waste of time appealing it.

I'll upload the back in a moment.


Back of PCN, standard again



This post has been edited by Reno182: Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 15:47
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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 16:05
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Most unhelpfully, the terms of the order don't match The Road User Charging Schemes (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2013 (see http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/17...ulation/7/made), which provide that a PCN musts state (my emphasis):

"(f)the amount of penalty charge that is payable if the penalty charge is paid in full—
(i)within 14 days of the day on which the penalty charge notice is served;
(ii)after the expiry of such 14 day period but within 28 days of the day on which the penalty charge notice is served;
(iii)after the service of a charge certificate;
"

Therefore it looks like the PCN complies with the 2013 regulations. Without researching this further, I suspect the 2013 regulations trump the order and the PCN is therefore compliant.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Reno182
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 16:22
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 17:05) *
Most unhelpfully, the terms of the order don't match The Road User Charging Schemes (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2013 (see http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/17...ulation/7/made), which provide that a PCN musts state (my emphasis):

"(f)the amount of penalty charge that is payable if the penalty charge is paid in full—
(i)within 14 days of the day on which the penalty charge notice is served;
(ii)after the expiry of such 14 day period but within 28 days of the day on which the penalty charge notice is served;
(iii)after the service of a charge certificate;
"

Therefore it looks like the PCN complies with the 2013 regulations. Without researching this further, I suspect the 2013 regulations trump the order and the PCN is therefore compliant.


Thanks again.

Do you think it's worth an appeal on the grounds of well we didn't realise you had to pay online we expected a toll booth, we didn't see any sign of any penalty charge amount and basically it's our first time using this toll bridge and we are unaware of the process, would this even register with them?

Final one, would the charge go up to 40 If we appealed and didn't hear back within the 14 day time scale?

This post has been edited by Reno182: Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 16:23
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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 16:58
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All you can do is ask them to exercise discretion to cancel. Most authorities extend the discount period if you submit representations within 14 days, hopefully someone will confirm if Merseyflow usually do this.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Reno182
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 17:49
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 17:58) *
All you can do is ask them to exercise discretion to cancel. Most authorities extend the discount period if you submit representations within 14 days, hopefully someone will confirm if Merseyflow usually do this.


Ok, thanks cp8759.
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IanJohnsonWS14
post Fri, 15 Jun 2018 - 07:45
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I am not a local and only been over the bridge once - there are plenty of signs telling you it is subject to a toll and how to pay.


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Incandescent
post Fri, 15 Jun 2018 - 11:02
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Let's hope the OP doesn't drive to Central London or cross the Dartford Bridge !
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Reno182
post Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 21:13
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Update.

Well we went ahead and appealed and just got a letter today saying the appeal was rejected no surprises there really however they have reduced the penalty on this occasion to the original cost of the crossing which is £4 ohmy.gif we were pleasantly surprised!

Moral to the story, it pays to appeal even If you lose that appeal!

We were so grateful we emailed them to thank them , really didn't think we'd get offered just to pay the £4 fair play to Merseyflow.
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Incandescent
post Sun, 8 Jul 2018 - 21:12
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QUOTE (Reno182 @ Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 22:13) *
Update.

Well we went ahead and appealed and just got a letter today saying the appeal was rejected no surprises there really however they have reduced the penalty on this occasion to the original cost of the crossing which is £4 ohmy.gif we were pleasantly surprised!

Moral to the story, it pays to appeal even If you lose that appeal!

We were so grateful we emailed them to thank them , really didn't think we'd get offered just to pay the £4 fair play to Merseyflow.

We have found much forbearance with the DART crossing people, and they also run the Mersey Gateway tolling. But don't push your luck a second time as I suspect they'll demand the PCN be paid !

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 - 21:13
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