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PCN for failed permit renewal
Tariq
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 11:24
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Hey, hoping I can get some advice. I was not able to renew my permit due to a confirmed technical issue with the council website. I was under the impression that my permit had been renewed. I have already appealed and they rejected it. I have attached the PCN, my original appeal and there response, which will detail what had gone wrong. Would appreciate any kind of advice. Thanks

APPEAL EMAIL
----------------

PCN IZXXXXXXXX - Failed Payments
Tue 8 May

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing with regards to a PCN (IZXXXXXXXX ) I received on the 03/05/2018 at 00:00 on Some Street for (19) Parked on a residents' or shared use parking place or zone either displaying an invalid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket, or after the expiry of paid for time.

I had called Islington Parking to discuss this matter today, 08/05/2018 at 00:00, and spoke to Edward who provided me with the call reference: 00000000.

For financial reasons, I usually renew my permit every month and have never forgotten as I do set a calendar reminder to alert me. As explained to Edward, I thought I had renewed my permit for another month on Monday 30/04/2018 using my computer at work. On receiving the above mentioned PCN, I searched my emails for the receipt, which I was unable to find. I did find earlier emails, which consists of a payment receipt and a renewal confirmation for every renewal. Having realised something has evidently gone wrong I renewed my permit again, but for 3 months, yesterday 07/05/2018 at 00:00 for £33.45. This time, I had received a permit payment receipt, but did not receive the renewal confirmation. Edward then informed me that the renewal could not have gone through as the permit is still marked as expired. He was able to search and identify that I had made a payment and so renewed my permit while I was on the call.

Although, I have a Windows PC at home and use the Chrome browse, at work I have a Mac and use Safari. Edward had informed me that there are known issues when using the Safari browser to make payments. I was told that he is not able to cancel the PCN and that I would have to appeal in writing detailing what had happened. Edward confirmed he would make notes on my account with regards to this incident.

Evidently, this was a technical failure and a misunderstanding as I was under the impression that my permit was renewed and so believed that I was eligible to park at the above mentioned location. I hope you will cancel the PCN and let me know of the outcome of any investigation.

Thank you

Kindest regards

Tariq Khan



APPEAL REJECTION
----------------------

Dear Mr Khan

Penalty Charge Notice No. IZ0000000 Date of Issue 03/05/2018 at 13:02
Location of Contravention Some Street [Zone E]


Thank you for your letter regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) which was recently received at this office.

The Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) was issued because the vehicle was parked in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone displaying an invalid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket, or after the expiry of paid for time.

I have considered your correspondence and noted its contents.

Having checked the system, I can see that a reminder letter was sent to you on the 24/04/2018. The reminder is sent as a courtesy and as such should not be relied upon as the sole instance by which a resident notes that their permit should be updated.

It remains the responsibility of the residential permit holder to ensure that the permit they hold is renewed in a timely manner and to ensure that their vehicle is parked in accordance with the restrictions relating to the permit. If a resident is unable to renew the permit alternative parking arrangements should be made such as paying to park by phone or removing their vehicle from the road. I take on board the point you raise that you were under the impression that your permit had been renewed but this was not the case on this occasion.

The council is keen to ensure that most residents are able to receive permit reminders by electronic means in future. If you have an e-account, you should check the status of that account to ensure that you have set the account so that the council has the permission to send you emails in future. To check that status, or make the required changes, please contact 020 7527 2000, where the call centre staff will talk you through it.

As you did not have the correct permit at the time the PCN was issued, I am satisfied that the PCN was issued correctly and should be upheld.

As the PCN was issued correctly, payment is now due. I have decided that we can accept the discounted amount of £40.00 provided we receive that before 29/06/2018. Please bear in mind that on that date the charge will increase to £80.00. If you wish to continue to contest the matter, the next stage is that a Notice to Owner will be sent to the person responsible for the penalty charge. This is a necessary legal step and further correspondence will only delay this process.

I am afraid you are unlikely to get a further opportunity to make discounted payment. However, the Notice to Owner will establish liability for the Penalty Charge Notice and the grounds under which representations may be made. If representations are made at this stage and they are rejected, there will be the right of appeal to an independent Environment and Traffic Adjudicator. You can make a credit or debit card payment on - 020 7527 2000 - at any time. You can also pay on line at www.islington.gov.uk. If you prefer to pay by cheque, please make it payable to LB Islington and send it to the above address. Please write the PCN number on the back of the cheque. You may also send postal orders (quoting the PCN number).


Yours sincerely

Steve Johnson


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post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 11:24
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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 13:31
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Let's start by saying that there's no need to hide the location or the date, to be honest the only data worth redacting on a council PCN is the number plate.

Having said that, from what you say in your representations, it sounds like you simply forgot to renew the permit. From what you say, the technical difficulties mean that when you renew the permit using Safari, they take the money and send you a payment receipt, but don't renew the permit. You haven't found a payment receipt email from 30/04/2018 and presumably you've checked your bank statement to confirm they didn't take the money. You don't say that you have a clear recollection of renewing the permit on 30/04/2018, you just say you thought you had (implying that you might not have). Therefore on the balance of probabilities, an adjudicator would find that you simply forgot to renew the permit that month.

Of course, if you check your bank statement and it shows they did take the first payment, that's a very different situation.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Tariq
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 13:46
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 14:31) *
Let's start by saying that there's no need to hide the location or the date, to be honest the only data worth redacting on a council PCN is the number plate.

Having said that, from what you say in your representations, it sounds like you simply forgot to renew the permit. From what you say, the technical difficulties mean that when you renew the permit using Safari, they take the money and send you a payment receipt, but don't renew the permit. You haven't found a payment receipt email from 30/04/2018 and presumably you've checked your bank statement to confirm they didn't take the money. You don't say that you have a clear recollection of renewing the permit on 30/04/2018, you just say you thought you had (implying that you might not have). Therefore on the balance of probabilities, an adjudicator would find that you simply forgot to renew the permit that month.

Of course, if you check your bank statement and it shows they did take the first payment, that's a very different situation.



Thank you for the advice and I think that is why my appeal was rejected.

On the 30/04/2018 I had renewed my permit and there was no indication provided to me by the website that my permit had not been renewed. That is what I actually meant by stating I thought I renewed my permit. It was simply their website not working using the Safari browser as Edward had confirmed when I called them. No payment was taken when I checked after receiving the PCN.

To support the above incident and as you say, to negate balance of probabilities, on receiving the PCN and attempting to renew again; payment was taken, but the permit was not renewed and had to be done by Edward while I was on the call to him. If they check their records, Payment was taken earlier and the permit renewed at a later date.

Hope that makes sense.
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ford poplar
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 13:54
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Why not ask Council to set up DD to renew your Permit when due, or you set up a SO to do the same thing via Direct Banking?
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Tariq
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 14:13
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QUOTE (ford poplar @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 14:54) *
Why not ask Council to set up DD to renew your Permit when due, or you set up a SO to do the same thing via Direct Banking?


They don't offer that service
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stamfordman
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 14:19
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Well Islington could have easily exercised discretion here as it's plain to see you are an honest resident trying to buy your permit but they haven't done so. You'll have to risk £80 by taking it further.
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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 15:05
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QUOTE (Tariq @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 14:46) *
On the 30/04/2018 I had renewed my permit and there was no indication provided to me by the website that my permit had not been renewed.

The problem is that's not what you said in your first informal representations, you were more ambiguous and an adjudicator might take what you're saying now with a pinch of salt. Basically you would have to convince the adjudicator that you definitely attempted to renew the permit on 30 April, but due to a technical issue it didn't go through. You'd have to take this to the tribunal and you'd probably only have 50/50 odds, and you would lose the chance of paying the discounted penalty, you'd either win and have to pay nothing or lose and have to pay the full penalty. For a case like this, I'd have to recommend a personal hearing as the case would be based on your credibility as a witness. However in theory it should be possible to get the IT logs from the council to show that you attempted to renew on 30 April, which would significantly strengthen your case.

So now you have to make a choice, either fight it all the way (in which case we'll do all we can to help you), or accept their offer and pay the discounted penalty.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Tariq
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 15:51
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 16:05) *
QUOTE (Tariq @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 14:46) *
On the 30/04/2018 I had renewed my permit and there was no indication provided to me by the website that my permit had not been renewed.

The problem is that's not what you said in your first informal representations, you were more ambiguous and an adjudicator might take what you're saying now with a pinch of salt. Basically you would have to convince the adjudicator that you definitely attempted to renew the permit on 30 April, but due to a technical issue it didn't go through. You'd have to take this to the tribunal and you'd probably only have 50/50 odds, and you would lose the chance of paying the discounted penalty, you'd either win and have to pay nothing or lose and have to pay the full penalty. For a case like this, I'd have to recommend a personal hearing as the case would be based on your credibility as a witness. However in theory it should be possible to get the IT logs from the council to show that you attempted to renew on 30 April, which would significantly strengthen your case.

So now you have to make a choice, either fight it all the way (in which case we'll do all we can to help you), or accept their offer and pay the discounted penalty.


I realised my mistake based on your initial reply. I am going to try replying to the email requested the logs and the call recording with Edward where he did verbally state that he can clearly see their was a technical issue of some sort. I am presuming that I am entitled to both as I would need these in order to fully support my case. I did not initially think there was any chance of my appeal being rejected based on my conversation with Edward and thought the appeal was simply a formality. I obviously was verbally clear in highlighting the issue, but not when putting it in writing. ohmy.gif

I really do appreciate the help cp8759.
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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 15:55
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You should be able to get the call recording (assuming it was a recorded call), their IT logs might be a bit more tricky. Do you have an account with the council that you use to log in to their website?


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Tariq
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 16:05
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 16:55) *
You should be able to get the call recording (assuming it was a recorded call), their IT logs might be a bit more tricky. Do you have an account with the council that you use to log in to their website?


Yes, that is how I have been renewing my permit for the past few years. I am sure they have logs of the fact that I renew very frequently and that I have never forgotten to do so. I have had this car for 2+ years and have never received a ticket against it.
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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 16:55
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QUOTE (Tariq @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 17:05) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 16:55) *
You should be able to get the call recording (assuming it was a recorded call), their IT logs might be a bit more tricky. Do you have an account with the council that you use to log in to their website?


Yes, that is how I have been renewing my permit for the past few years. I am sure they have logs of the fact that I renew very frequently and that I have never forgotten to do so. I have had this car for 2+ years and have never received a ticket against it.

You need to ask specifically for logs of all activity on your account on 30 April 2018.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Tariq
post Thu, 26 Jul 2018 - 16:37
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 17:55) *
QUOTE (Tariq @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 17:05) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 16:55) *
You should be able to get the call recording (assuming it was a recorded call), their IT logs might be a bit more tricky. Do you have an account with the council that you use to log in to their website?


Yes, that is how I have been renewing my permit for the past few years. I am sure they have logs of the fact that I renew very frequently and that I have never forgotten to do so. I have had this car for 2+ years and have never received a ticket against it.

You need to ask specifically for logs of all activity on your account on 30 April 2018.


Thanks again cp8759; I decided to continue appealing as I found it to be robbery given the fact that I did renew (even though it was not processed). Below is the Councils response:


Thank you for your email regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

I have noted your comments and I have attempted to look in to the points you have raised. You have stated that you did renew your permit on 30 April 2018 and that upon receiving the PCN, you spoke to my colleague Edward who is a Contact Islington agent. You have stated that should your appeal be rejected you would like an audio file of the conversation.

To investigate this, I spoke with my the manager in Contact Islington. I was told that a recording was not held as a result of a system issue. As a result and as I am not able to fully investigate your grounds of appeal, I have decided to cancel this PCN for you.

As the ticket has now been cancelled, there is no need for you to take any further action. I apologise for any inconvenience caused.

For future reference, please do ensure that your renewal has definitely been processed. Any other PCNs issued under similar circumstances may be enforced.



Didn't like the last line about me ensuring that my renewal has definitely been processed; I did my part of remembering to renew, filling in the forms, previously providing relevant documents and providing payment details. I would have thought ensuring it is processed is their job, but will try avoiding this scenario in future.

Thanks again smile.gif
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cp8759
post Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 23:12
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Well we got there in the end. To be fair, if next time you ensure your permit has definitely renewed, you'll save yourself the hassle of having to appeal smile.gif


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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