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Congestion charge PCN due to lack of AutoPay
Aquamansrousings...
post Thu, 7 Jun 2018 - 23:55
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Hi

Got a PCN from TFL.
Apparently the keeper's car had been in the congestion zone. The keeper however was erroneously under the impression that they were signed up for the auto pay feature - indeed all the keeper's details and the car were registered and up to date on the TFL congestion zone website, including text alerts. The autopay feature however was not activated.

This is the first time of an offence in the congestion zone for this keeper's car/account. Indeed, it looks like the keeper has never been in the congestion zone before at chargeable times, seeing there's no previous transactions.

Would an appeal on compassionate grounds for genuine mistake be accepted? It seems terrible customer service that instead of sending an email or text alert, they immediately resort to a PCN to the tune of 80 pounds.

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post Thu, 7 Jun 2018 - 23:55
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Incandescent
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 07:25
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Need to know more about this "auto-pay" system you mention. What did you do to set it up, and was the request accepted, was the correct vehicle reg. number entered, etc If it hasn't worked, then you need to check why. If it's a system error then you should appeal it under: -
"the penalty exceeded the relevant amount in the circumstances of the case"
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Aquamansrousings...
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 10:39
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So the keeper thought he had set it up, however when he checked upon receiving the PCN it was not set up. No way to know if it was previously set up and the system deleted it, or if (more likely) it was never set up but the keeper thought he had because he filled in all his details in TFL registering his car etc - details that could be used for pay as you go. Tfl run the two systems separately but the keeper had the impression most likely that that's what he was filling it in for.
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cp8759
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 10:53
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You could ask them to exercise discretion to cancel.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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Neil B
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 21:32
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Shouldn't the 'keeper' be asking these questions. rolleyes.gif


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Aquamansrousings...
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 09:44
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Can anyone see any mistakes in the PCN?
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Neil B
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 13:21
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Well yeah --- but we really need to be explaining it to the relevant person.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Aquamansrousings...
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 22:02
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You're so hilarious and thanks for being helpful. This is why we come here!
...

No one is under any obligation to admit who was driving.
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cp8759
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 22:04
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QUOTE (Aquamansrousingsong @ Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 23:02) *
You're so hilarious and thanks for being helpful. This is why we come here!
...

No one is under any obligation to admit who was driving.

For council / TFL PCNs, liability rests with the owner (assuming you're not a hire car firm) regardless of who was driving, therefore there is nothing to be lost, and much confusion to be gained, in concealing who the driver is.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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Incandescent
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 22:19
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 23:04) *
QUOTE (Aquamansrousingsong @ Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 23:02) *
You're so hilarious and thanks for being helpful. This is why we come here!
...

No one is under any obligation to admit who was driving.

For council / TFL PCNs, liability rests with the owner (assuming you're not a hire car firm) regardless of who was driving, therefore there is nothing to be lost, and much confusion to be gained, in concealing who the driver is.

Driver is irrelevant as to who has responsibility for appealing or paying the PCN, but is crucial in deciding whether a good appeal case can be made out. So before you submit any reps to the enforcing authority, make sure you have all the facts, that's all.
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Aquamansrousings...
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 22:38
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I was not aware of the difference cf. to private tickets.
So in the interest of clarity:
I was driving, I'm the registered keeper, and it was my congestion charge account.
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cp8759
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 23:00
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Asking TFL to exercise discretion to cancel is the only thing you can do to be honest. I assume you got the other sheet of the PCN, and it includes stuff about your right to appeal? We have had at least one instance where someone put the wrong sheet in the envelope and that would make the PCN invalid.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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Neil B
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 23:08
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You were sounding like a FMOTL nutcase.

We only ever advise the responsible party here, in such cases, as that is the only person who can legally
make representations.
We sometimes make exceptions for various reasons but you gave none.

For parking PCNs served on a vehicle it's slightly different; anyone can challenge initially but ultimate
liability rests with the owner.

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 00:00) *
Asking TFL to exercise discretion to cancel is the only thing you can do to be honest.

?
Both of the deadline dates for payment are wrong, adding a day.

I'm unsure why I've not heard of anyone fighting on that issue, as we probably would in any other case
apart from Cong chg.

Maybe because the contravention itself is normally irrefutable and people baulk at working only with a legal
technicality but at least the OP here has a story.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 23:29
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 00:08) *
Both of the deadline dates for payment are wrong, adding a day.

I'm unsure why I've not heard of anyone fighting on that issue, as we probably would in any other case
apart from Cong chg.

Maybe because the contravention itself is normally irrefutable and people baulk at working only with a legal
technicality but at least the OP here has a story.

Personally I wouldn't want to risk the discount on that. I can just see an adjudicator say that as the correct time-period is conveyed on the PCN, and the dates are in the appellant's favour and thus not prejudicial, the PCN is substantially complaint. Really depends on whether Aquamansrousingsong wants to play the double or nothing game at the tribunal.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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Neil B
post Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 00:38
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 00:29) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 00:08) *
Both of the deadline dates for payment are wrong, adding a day.

I'm unsure why I've not heard of anyone fighting on that issue, as we probably would in any other case
apart from Cong chg.

Maybe because the contravention itself is normally irrefutable and people baulk at working only with a legal
technicality but at least the OP here has a story.

Personally I wouldn't want to risk the discount on that. I can just see an adjudicator say that as the correct time-period is conveyed on the PCN, and the dates are in the appellant's favour and thus not prejudicial, the PCN is substantially complaint.

Yes those were my thoughts too.
But what adjudicators repeatedly fail to examine is whether that extra day is actually allowed in practice.
I might say, ditto this forum, hence my suggestion in the Havering Tangent Hill case: Why are we not looking?.
If that extra day really is in appellant's favour, as you suggest, then why not see if it really is?
The OP would have to be sharp enough to watch the calender but I'd give it a look if it were mine.

The bigger point is that it potentially reflects on all future cases on similar issues, i.e. adjudicators could no longer take for granted
what a PCN or other notice promises.

As programming of progression in EA computer systems is haphazard and safety days are employed through their recognition of their
own uncertainty, it's likely that the true answer to their intentions won't be revealed but, again, worth a look.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Aquamansrousings...
post Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 00:52
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How would I go about that?
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cp8759
post Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 09:38
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QUOTE (Aquamansrousingsong @ Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 01:52) *
How would I go about that?

The safest way would be to simply wait till 21 June. If you can pay the discounted amount, I'd do that. However, if before midnight on 21 June the penalty on the website has gone up to £160, you can challenge the PCN on the basis that the penalty exceeds the amount due / TFL has mislead you into missing out on the discount.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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Neil B
post Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 11:44
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 10:38) *
QUOTE (Aquamansrousingsong @ Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 01:52) *
How would I go about that?

The safest way would be to simply wait till 21 June. If you can pay the discounted amount, I'd do that. However, if before midnight on 21 June the penalty on the website has gone up to £160, you can challenge the PCN on the basis that the penalty exceeds the amount due / TFL has mislead you into missing out on the discount.

Yep.
Sort of.
If discount is still available 21st you could pay as cp says ---- or you could still revert to his original suggestion of sending
representations as a plea for discretion.
You'd obviously have to have these prepared, ready to send. Do they allow reps by e-mail?
- and I wouldn't go much past 8pm in case of hiccups.





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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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