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PNC in Eastleigh, Signs for 2 hour parking and for permit only
lolotte
post Thu, 7 Jun 2018 - 19:37
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good evening

I was parked up in Eastleigh yesterday morning around 1130. I left just before 1300 and found a parking ticket on my car from the local council.

On entering the road it has a sign either side saying (controlled zone mon-sat 8am-8pm) further down the road on the right, the first sign says (permit holders Z1 or 2 hours no return within 2 hours). i believe this to be all along the road but seems it wasnt the case. i checked other signs and it has different signs, some saying permit only and some saying the same as the first one on the road, permit and 2 hour.

ive uploaded images with notes and ill link them below
i also did a bit of research first with several links to here so decided to put the question here......is there hope of an appeal or am i 'banged to rights'? i did look at a few pages and I'll link them later if they may be of any help. they are on my phone
my thinking is that the signs are not particularly clear and the road markings are terrible --worse in real life than on gmaps.

one final note:when i go on the council site, i cannot see the photos, if there are any
i can send someone the number to check but from what i see it's best to avoid posting publically?




https://ibb.co/c1FU8T zone sign
https://ibb.co/ge0J2o first sign
https://ibb.co/bAn2V8 second sign
https://ibb.co/npkU8T parked where the black van is
https://ibb.co/bEQJ2o my car
https://ibb.co/mCUZa8 -- screenshot of council appeal page
https://ibb.co/bMSboT -- pnc

This post has been edited by lolotte: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 10:34
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post Thu, 7 Jun 2018 - 19:37
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 7 Jun 2018 - 19:41
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post the council pics and a gsv
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lolotte
post Thu, 7 Jun 2018 - 19:58
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 7 Jun 2018 - 20:41) *
post the council pics and a gsv


What council pics?

what is a gsv?

edit - was that an automated response? if not, see pics plz.....
google street view... well see the pics i already posted i guess

This post has been edited by lolotte: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 - 20:00
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 7 Jun 2018 - 21:10
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QUOTE (lolotte @ Thu, 7 Jun 2018 - 20:58) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 7 Jun 2018 - 20:41) *
post the council pics and a gsv


What council pics?

what is a gsv?

edit - was that an automated response? if not, see pics plz.....
google street view... well see the pics i already posted i guess


No it was not an automated response, the council pics will show us where you parked, which signs govern and allow us to make a judgement as to whether they might be confusing ,or if the are legal.
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lolotte
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 06:54
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 7 Jun 2018 - 22:10) *
No it was not an automated response, the council pics will show us where you parked, which signs govern and allow us to make a judgement as to whether they might be confusing ,or if the are legal.



see this

QUOTE (lolotte @ Thu, 7 Jun 2018 - 20:37) *
one final note:when i go on the council site, i cannot see the photos, if there are any
i can send someone the number to check but from what i see it's best to avoid posting publically?

https://ibb.co/mCUZa8 -- screenshot of council appeal page


This post has been edited by lolotte: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 06:57
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hcandersen
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 09:16
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You parked in a parking place.
This would be controlled by a traffic sign situated within or in the vicinity of the parking place.
The contravention is for not complying with that sign..
..therefore we need to see that sign and your car in photos taken by the authority..

..unless you accept (because the presence of the PCN would have caused you to look at the sign) that the one in your parking place stated parking by permit holders only.

You know, we don’t.
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lolotte
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 09:52
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 10:16) *
You parked in a parking place.
This would be controlled by a traffic sign situated within or in the vicinity of the parking place.
The contravention is for not complying with that sign..
..therefore we need to see that sign and your car in photos taken by the authority..

..unless you accept (because the presence of the PCN would have caused you to look at the sign) that the one in your parking place stated parking by permit holders only.

You know, we don’t.



I really don't understand.
i have posted the photos. can you not see them? They are at the bottom, several links
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stamfordman
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 10:01
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QUOTE (lolotte @ Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 10:52) *
I really don't understand.
i have posted the photos. can you not see them? They are at the bottom, several links


We don't have time to wade through lots of street view links.

We need to see exactly what the sign was for the bay in which you parked.

If you PM me the details I'll check for council pics.
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lolotte
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 10:32
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 11:01) *
QUOTE (lolotte @ Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 10:52) *
I really don't understand.
i have posted the photos. can you not see them? They are at the bottom, several links


We don't have time to wade through lots of street view links.

We need to see exactly what the sign was for the bay in which you parked.

If you PM me the details I'll check for council pics.


someone asks for street view
someone says no time for street view

do you see the confusion here?

In any case, i'll message you in a moment and update the first post.
first sign i saw https://ibb.co/dE1kiT
second
https://ibb.co/bAn2V8
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stamfordman
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 10:55
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There are no council pics online.

Moving around on street view:

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.9723404,-1....3312!8i6656

the bays aren't the best marked out but the one you were in does seem to have an end line but there isn't a permit only sign sign until you go some way down the road.

There is though a single bay with permit only before this one and after the 2 hour bay. That they have dotted lines running down all the bays and spurious keep clear lines adds to confusion.

You could certainly try a challenge based on poor layout.
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cp8759
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 11:01
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Upload the back of the PCN please (Yes I know it's all standard text, need to see it anyway). Also, email the council and ask them for the photos, even if they're not online it seems unlikely the CEO wouldn't have taken any.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 11:04


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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lolotte
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 14:49
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 11:55) *
There are no council pics online.

Moving around on street view:

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.9723404,-1....3312!8i6656

the bays aren't the best marked out but the one you were in does seem to have an end line but there isn't a permit only sign sign until you go some way down the road.

There is though a single bay with permit only before this one and after the 2 hour bay. That they have dotted lines running down all the bays and spurious keep clear lines adds to confusion.

You could certainly try a challenge based on poor layout.



just a quick update -- they replied and the photos are now online













This post has been edited by lolotte: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 14:47
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cp8759
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 20:48
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Show us the back of the PCN.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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lolotte
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 21:07
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 21:48) *
Show us the back of the PCN.




why is it needed?
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cp8759
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 23:38
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Because the council often makes mistakes in the small print that make the PCN invalid. Unfortunately you've folded it in such a way that we can't check. Please show us all of the text on the back of the PCN.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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lolotte
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 23:54
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 00:38) *
Because the council often makes mistakes in the small print that make the PCN invalid. Unfortunately you've folded it in such a way that we can't check. Please show us all of the text on the back of the PCN.


i folded it to make it fit in the camera better. there is nothing between
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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 00:21
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OK, unusually this council has put much of the mandatory information on the front of the PCN.

However, the PCN is potentially unlawful by virtue of the use of the 0845 number. The reasons behind this are rather complex / technical, and unfortunately I need to make a Freedom of Information request to the council to confirm whether this can save the day. In a nutshell, if there is a service charge included in the cost of that 0845 number, the amount of the penalty exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case, that makes the PCN invalid.

My advice is this: Submit a sort, informal appeal online on 19 June (the last day of the discount period), explaining that it was an innocent mistake and asking them to exercise discretion to cancel. They say they will normally re-offer the discount so even if they reject, nothing is lost. It will take them at least a week or so to consider, plus you'll have another 14 day discount period once they've replied, by then the FOI request should have come back.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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lolotte
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 01:03
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 01:21) *
OK, unusually this council has put much of the mandatory information on the front of the PCN.

However, the PCN is potentially unlawful by virtue of the use of the 0845 number. The reasons behind this are rather complex / technical, and unfortunately I need to make a Freedom of Information request to the council to confirm whether this can save the day. In a nutshell, if there is a service charge included in the cost of that 0845 number, the amount of the penalty exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case, that makes the PCN invalid.

My advice is this: Submit a sort, informal appeal online on 19 June (the last day of the discount period), explaining that it was an innocent mistake and asking them to exercise discretion to cancel. They say they will normally re-offer the discount so even if they reject, nothing is lost. It will take them at least a week or so to consider, plus you'll have another 14 day discount period once they've replied, by then the FOI request should have come back.




would it also be worth mentioning anything regarding bays as mentioned in this post:


QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 11:55) *
There are no council pics online.

Moving around on street view:

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.9723404,-1....3312!8i6656

the bays aren't the best marked out but the one you were in does seem to have an end line but there isn't a permit only sign sign until you go some way down the road.

There is though a single bay with permit only before this one and after the 2 hour bay. That they have dotted lines running down all the bays and spurious keep clear lines adds to confusion.

You could certainly try a challenge based on poor layout.



or just as you said?
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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 11:49
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QUOTE (lolotte @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 02:03) *
would it also be worth mentioning anything regarding bays as mentioned in this post:


QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 11:55) *
There are no council pics online.

Moving around on street view:

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.9723404,-1....3312!8i6656

the bays aren't the best marked out but the one you were in does seem to have an end line but there isn't a permit only sign sign until you go some way down the road.

There is though a single bay with permit only before this one and after the 2 hour bay. That they have dotted lines running down all the bays and spurious keep clear lines adds to confusion.

You could certainly try a challenge based on poor layout.



or just as you said?

It can't hurt so you might as well put that in too.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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lolotte
post Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 09:24
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 12:49) *
QUOTE (lolotte @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 02:03) *
would it also be worth mentioning anything regarding bays as mentioned in this post:


QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 11:55) *
There are no council pics online.

Moving around on street view:

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.9723404,-1....3312!8i6656

the bays aren't the best marked out but the one you were in does seem to have an end line but there isn't a permit only sign sign until you go some way down the road.

There is though a single bay with permit only before this one and after the 2 hour bay. That they have dotted lines running down all the bays and spurious keep clear lines adds to confusion.

You could certainly try a challenge based on poor layout.



or just as you said?

It can't hurt so you might as well put that in too.


just so you know, the informal appeal has been sent
the page does say
"If you make your challenge within 14 days of the date on which the PCN was issued and your challenge is rejected, the discount period will be reset for a further period of 14 days from the date of the rejection letter."
so thats ok
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