Forgot to display permit when abroad - £700 charges, PCM UK Options

[diebel17]

Hi, I'm wondering whether anybody might care to offer advice on this case.

In September-October 2019 I was abroad for several weeks working for a charity. I had stupidly forgotten to put my Parking Permit in the windscreen of my vehicle, parked in my residential carpark controlled by PCM UK, before leaving. While I was gone I racked up 7 x PCNs before a friend noticed a couple on the windscreen and messaged me - at which point I got him to display the permit immediately.

I appealed all 7 x PCNs both informally with PCM (Parking Control Management) and with IAS, and all were rejected.

Personally, I feel that asking me to pay £700 because I forgot to display the valid parking permit that I own at my home car park is excessive.

In a couple of weeks, PCM UK will pass the case to a debt collection agency. I guess if I refuse to pay them, then I will go to court? And I am very sketchy on my chances of winning this case.

So I'm looking for any advice, general or specific, that will help me decide whether to continue fighting this - or submit (which I really don't want to do).

Thanks!

----
Portion of the appeal rejection from IAS (same text for all 7 x PCNs):
"The Operator has provided evidence of the signs at the site, which make it clear any driver parking without fully displaying a valid permit in the windscreen, agrees to pay the parking charge.

The Appellant claims that they had a valid permit and provides evidence of the same. They claim they had not been able to display the permit but it is not clear why. The Appellant has then provided evidence they were not in the country for a significant period of time during which the notices were issued, and the first notice was observed on 7/10. Whilst I sympathise with the circumstances, I am unable to allow the appeal on this basis.
..
As a genuine permit holder the Appellant has my sympathy, but the guidance to the appeal is clear that I may only consider legal issues not extenuating circumstances. The Operator has provided photographic evidence of the Appellant's vehicle parked on the land they manage, and without a permit displayed. The appeal is dismissed."

[Advertisement]

[The Rookie]

Oh no, badly badly handled.
In future
1/NEVER give away the driver ID
2/ NEVER appeal to the IAS

However now you just ignore, but file, correspondence until (and I think its a when not an if) you get a letter before country court claim or a genuine claim form.

It's very unlikely you had any contract with PCM, what could they offer you? They couldn't offer parking as I suspect you already had an absolute right to park. No contract means no grounds for the charges.

[Jlc]

Personally, I feel that asking me to pay £700 because I forgot to display the valid parking permit that I own at my home car park is excessive.

How do you 'own' the parking spot? Freehold/leasehold?

They will almost certainly sue. Do the signs have a 'per day' clause?

[ostell]

Get your lease out and see what you actually have as property. Is there a parking spot identified or the right to park written in ? If in doubt pist it up

[paulajayne]

If in doubt pist it up

POST it up as well

Lease - what does it say or not say about parking?

[diebel17]

Thanks and apologies to all the kind members who have weighed in on this. I have been under the weather for a couple of days and furthermore I didn't receive email notifications as expected yet.

@Jlc, @ostell, @paulajayne - as far as I know there is nothing in the Leasehold arrangement (don't have it to hand, am abroad again!) that gives me the right to park at my property. Parking permits are issued online on a first-come, first-serve basis annually every August. I purchased mine as usual in August 2019 and forgot to stick it to the windscreen before I went abroad in September. Yes, very stupid, but I was super busy at the time and rarely at my property.
I can probably dig out one or more of the PCM letters, but I have attached the PCM signage at my property so there is no ambiguity.

@TheRookie - appreciated, but I really didn't anticipate having this kind of struggle. £700 to park at home when I had bought a permit. I wouldn't have imagined such an unreasonable situation.

As shown in the attached pic, the sign clearly states that the vehicle must have a "VALID PARKING PERMIT FULLY DISPLAYED". Which I didn't have.

So I guess they've got me "bang to rights"? In other words, it's pointless to let it go to court as I'm in a weak position?

If so, then I guess my options are to pay the £700 outright, or let it go to debt collection and see if they can arrange some more convenient payment terms.

I really don't want to submit in this case, but the tone of the comments I've got so far suggests that I'm screwed, basically.

Thanks to all that commented, and future comments also gratefully received and more quickly answered, I promise!

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[mickR]

The actual wording of your lease is of major importance. Can anyone get a copy of it for you? There will almost certainly be a section covering the parking of vehicles.

[ostell]

Should have read the sign more carefully

This post has been edited by ostell: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 13:44

[diebel17]

> The actual wording of your lease is of major importance. Can anyone get a copy of it for you? There will almost certainly be a section covering the parking of vehicles.

@mickR Thanks, I am seeing if I can get a fellow resident to help me with that. I'm wondering though how much difference it can make. Would you be hoping to find some loophole in the wording which meant that I am somehow not liable to PCM Uk? Obviously this would be very handy for me but I don't know how it could actually be the case...
I'll send more info as soon as I know.

> Should have read the sign more carefully
@ostell The sign wasn't really relevant in this case. I knew I had to display the Parking Permit I had bought, but circumstances and forgetfulness meant that I didn't do it before I left the country. So obviously I am at fault - the question here is am I sufficiently at fault to allow a private parking company to penalise me £700 for that forgetfulness?

Forgetfulness that caused no inconvenience or parking unavailability to anybody else. I owned a valid permit. And in this day and age where online databases that allow vehicle registrations to be checked for parking permissions, requiring a piece of paper to be affixed to the windscreen seems increasingly arbitrary.

[Sheffield Dave]

The important point here is that the signs saying you have to pay PCM £100 don't apply to you if you have a pre-existing right to park there. The usual way private car parks work is that the PPC display signs offering you a parking contract - they are basically saying "normally parking here would be trespass, but we'll let you park here if you accept these conditions, including promising to pay us £100 if you break the condtitions". You see the sign, and accept their contract "by performance", i.e. by parking there. If you already have a right to park there, then they're not offering you anything you didn't already have, so you would have had no reason to accept the contract.

In the case of a pre-existing right, then your obligations are based on the contract or lease which gave you those rights. If you violated those conditions, that's a matter between you and your landlord/landowner/whoever, not some random third-party stranger to your lease.

Or to put it another way, if signs suddenly appeared around the estate saying "anyone wanting to have a friend/partner stay overnight in your flat must now pay PCM £100 per night", you'd rightly agree that it is nonsense. and refuse to pay.

So the reason we keep mentioning the lease is that if it grants you a right to park, and unless it says that you must display a permit, and that if you don't you have to pay PCM £100, then they're out of luck.

[The Rookie]

I'm wondering though how much difference it can make.

Well it will very likely take you from possibly owing £700 to owing nothing at all.

It's all but certain your leases will mean you own then nothing at all, as detailed above.

To put it another way, I have a house and drive, if PCM erected a sign saying I have to pay them if I park on my own drive, how far do you think that would get in court? Yet your case is fundamentally the same.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 - 10:14

[nosferatu1001]

Get your lease out
Literally noone has said you have a weak case. Noone at all. Youre making a n unfounded conclusion here.
Get your lease, find ANY WAY YOU CAN of getting your lease, and checking anywhere you can think of for ANYTHIGN that grants you rights to park there

If you dont do this ,then pay up, because you are not cut out for the court process, which will involve a lot more work

[diebel17]

Hi all and thanks for the replies again (sorry I would have replied yesterday but for some reason my notifications stopped again ....)

@SheffieldDave @TheRookie @nosferatu1001
OK so as you guys are very strongly indicating, the lease could well be my saviour here.

As a layman in these matters, I had assumed that when PCM was contracted to oversee parking at my housing estate, that that meant everybody was subject equally to their terms. After all there are probably 70-80 leaseholders at my estate, and only about 30 or so parking places - so surely all leaseholders are not immune from parking charges? If this were the case, wouldn't parking just descend into a free-for-all as leaseholders learned that they weren't liable to PCM for any parking charges?

Anyway, as you guys obviously know a hell of a lot more than me, I am doing everything I can now to get a copy of the leasehold to scrutinize. I may ask a fellow leaseholder in the estate who will probably have a similar or identical leasehold agreement.

Thanks again for all the comments, I will update with leasehold info as soon as I get it.

[The Rookie]

As a layman in these matters, I had assumed that when PCM was contracted to oversee parking at my housing estate, that that meant everybody was subject equally to their terms. After all there are probably 70-80 leaseholders at my estate, and only about 30 or so parking places - so surely all leaseholders are not immune from parking charges? If this were the case, wouldn't parking just descend into a free-for-all as leaseholders learned that they weren't liable to PCM for any parking charges?

This is how they operate, people assume!

You have an absolute right to do what you lease permits you to do. You already PAY for that.

I presume only a minority are allowed to park from their lease, those not permitted to use a space courtesy of the lease can contract to pay the £100, but not with PCM as they have no authority from the landowner!

[nosferatu1001]

You made a poor assumption
You have not read enough threads
Dont rely on notifications. Just check in every day.

Read up the APPEAL COURT case of Jopson v Homeguard, easy to find, and you will see why your assumption is ill founded

[diebel17]

Hello again, to anybody still out there ....

I have just received a digital copy of my lease from HM Land Registry, and I have given it a thorough search for all parking references.

I wasn't sure to post up the entire lease (I should probably redact it first anyway) so I have posted the segments that I have identified so far.
Further bits postable as necessary....

I'd be really interested to see what the forum's experts might have to say on the following.
Looking forward to any responses - thanks!

------------

The word "parking" is only mentioned twice:

THE FIRST SCHEDULE above referred to
The Estate

ALL THAT area of land shown for the purposes of identification only outlined in green on the attached plan
marked 'A' comprising land garden flats garages parking spaces stores and premises known as
OOOOOO Park Estate

And again in the Eighth Schedule:

2. The Lessee shall not

(f) Cause or permit the parking of a motor or other
vehicle (other than a perambulator or pedal cycle) in or upon any part of the dwelling or within the
curtilage thereof or in or upon any part of the
Landlord's premises and land adjacent thereto

(g) Ride or permit the riding of any cycle (including a
motor scooter a power-assisted bicycle or solo motor-cycle) upon any part of the Estate or in or
upon any land of the Landlord adjacent thereto

Apart from this, there are references to "communal areas" in the Fifth Schedule.

7.
The right for the Lessee and all other lawful occupants of the demised premises (in common as
aforesaid) to use such gardens (if any) and other communal amenity areas (if any) on the
Estate as may from time to time subsist subject to compliance with all regulations laid down
by the Lessor in respect thereof

8. The right (in common as aforesaid) subject to payment of all charges therefor and compliance
with all regulations laid down by the Lessor in respect thereof to use any residents club room
or other communal facilities on the Estate

THE FIFTH SCHEDULE above referred to
Rights and easements granted to the Lessee
1.
The right in common with the Lessor and owners and occupiers of all other flats and all others
having the like right for the Lessee and for all other persons coming to or leaving the demised
premises to use for the purpose only of access to and egress from the demised premises all such
parts of the Estate as afford access thereto or egress therefrom (including all or any lifts) subject
to such regulations for the common enjoyment thereof as the Lessor may from time to time
prescribe and subject to the rights reserved by the Sixth Schedule hereto and subject also
(where applicable) to the installation and operation of any controlled entry system at the Block

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[nosferatu1001]

Dont just look for parking - you should read through for any reference to the parking areas you mention above, and how they are defined.

You cant just do a search. You dont know what language theyve used. You need to read it, top to bottom, and see what rights you are granted.

[diebel17]

@nosferatu1001 - understood.

I have gone through the whole lease (not just searching) and have not found any further references other than the ones I have posted.

Should I post a copy of the whole lease, just in case anybody can take a more experienced look?

[nosferatu1001]

Yes, because it might be a reference to a "common area" that youre missing, and the definition of common area includes parking. The construction of leases may not be simple.

[diebel17]

Yes, thanks @nosferatu1001, I'd be the first to admit that the lease and its wording are not 100% clear to me.

The PDF is 9mb so I've posted a Google Drive link:

Lease - PDF

Thanks to all the kind folks who've weighed in so far, and to any others who care to add anything after looking at my lease.

Is there anything in the lease that indicates a prior right to park? I find it difficult to tell!
Here's hoping that this can turn in a success story ....

(Lease delivered, thanks guys )

If in doubt pist it up

POST it up as well
Lease - what does it say or not say about parking?

The actual wording of your lease is of major importance. Can anyone get a copy of it for you? There will almost certainly be a section covering the parking of vehicles.

Get your lease out