PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

speed awareness course or a 12 month disqualification
mike5100
post Tue, 24 Sep 2019 - 12:56
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 162
Joined: 16 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,319



I took another thread off topic (in a way) and the moderator suggested that the discussion belongs in the Flame Pit.
The OP got a speeding ticket for 39 in a 30 but before he knew anything about the incident he had got 3 more NIPs on the same stretch of road. If his vehicle details had been up to date it's likely that he would have NOT committed the other 3 offences and just done a SAC. The second offence was several days after the first NIP would have arrived with him.
The legal situation is 'tough luck' you shouldn't have been speeding here's a hefty fine and a 12 month ban.
The morally dubious situation is that because of the admin system of DVLA and V5C systems not being linked many people are caught out thinking they have informed that they have changed addresses not realising that they have to advise both departments independently. The system then allows the prosecuting body as much time as they like (I think) to notify the perpetrator of their crimes. Many further crimes can happen in the intervening period.
On the basis that presumably society wants to prevent offending and safety camera partnerships want to prevent incidents of speeding rather than racking up more prosecutions, should anything be done to prevent these (moral) miscarriages of justice?
The 4 'crimes' have been compared to 4 burglaries and it has been argued that then logic would dictate that the police would have a duty to drop the 3 later charges because they weren't able to warn the offender after his first burglary. (I suggested speeding is often accidental whereas burglary is not. And failing to inform DVLA is a crime but surely the law should be able to deal with intentionality (shoplifting, burglary, mugging) differently from crimes of forgetfulness or inattention).
Mike
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
3 Pages V  < 1 2 3  
Start new topic
Replies (40 - 58)
Advertisement
post Tue, 24 Sep 2019 - 12:56
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
The Rookie
post Sat, 28 Sep 2019 - 07:42
Post #41


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 56,198
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



A decent modern car can exceed over 0.9g lateral acceleration, with 1g acting down, work out the lean angle for cornering at 0.9g, not happening on a road bike.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Korting
post Sat, 28 Sep 2019 - 07:50
Post #42


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,570
Joined: 13 May 2010
Member No.: 37,524



One thing that people dont take into account is a person's annual mileage. Someone who racks up a couple of speeding tickets within say 5000 miles of each other is more dangerous than someone who gets two speeding fines in 20000.

Without going through the various posts and quoting, Richard Brunstrom, the former Chief Constable of North Wales once referred to a driver who was doing 37 in a 30 to overtake a tractor as 'a lunatic'

Some time ago, I wanted to develop a system whereby the GPS system could tell the car the speed limits and the car would thus be limited to that speed. but I couldn't find anyone to help me develop it.

If by having such a system the accident rate went up, then that would be an indicator that speeding isn't necessarily the cause of accidents. unfortunately I dont have the technical know how to develop it.

I would also like to know why on certain dual carriageways, the speed limit has been reduced by so much.

Take the A40 out of London. The section between Marylebone and white city at one time was 60mph, then it reduced to 50, now its 40. The same goes for the section between Hanger Lane and Ruislip which again is reduced to 40. There seems no reason for these limits to be so low.

Often it leads to tailgaiting and road rage.

sometimes I think the authorities themselves are responsible for this mayhem
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Spandex
post Sat, 28 Sep 2019 - 08:22
Post #43


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 972
Joined: 9 Oct 2016
Member No.: 87,665



QUOTE (Korting @ Sat, 28 Sep 2019 - 08:50) *
One thing that people dont take into account is a person's annual mileage. Someone who racks up a couple of speeding tickets within say 5000 miles of each other is more dangerous than someone who gets two speeding fines in 20000.

Not true.

You can’t make any real assumptions about someone’s driving based purely on how many miles they did between two speeding offences. Many people speed every day but don’t ever get caught, while some people drive like nuns, then get caught on the first time they speed. This variability means that comparing individuals is impossible, and you can only really look at the stats as a whole to identify trends.

And that’s without even going into the question of how speeding relates to a drivers overall ‘danger’.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Slapdash
post Sat, 28 Sep 2019 - 08:45
Post #44


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,864
Joined: 2 Aug 2016
Member No.: 86,040



QUOTE (Korting @ Sat, 28 Sep 2019 - 08:50) *
dry.gif
I would also like to know why on certain dual carriageways, the speed limit has been reduced by so much.

Take the A40 out of London. The section between Marylebone and white city at one time was 60mph, then it reduced to 50, now its 40. The same goes for the section between Hanger Lane and Ruislip which again is reduced to 40. There seems no reason for these limits to be so low.

Often it leads to tailgaiting and road rage.


It increases overall capacity. You get more vehicles through due to the lower seperation. The differences can be quite marked.


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sat, 28 Sep 2019 - 12:20
Post #45


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (Spandex @ Sat, 28 Sep 2019 - 09:22) *
QUOTE (Korting @ Sat, 28 Sep 2019 - 08:50) *
One thing that people dont take into account is a person's annual mileage. Someone who racks up a couple of speeding tickets within say 5000 miles of each other is more dangerous than someone who gets two speeding fines in 20000.

Not true.

You can’t make any real assumptions about someone’s driving based purely on how many miles they did between two speeding offences. Many people speed every day but don’t ever get caught, while some people drive like nuns, then get caught on the first time they speed. This variability means that comparing individuals is impossible, and you can only really look at the stats as a whole to identify trends.

And that’s without even going into the question of how speeding relates to a drivers overall ‘danger’.

You can make general assumptions. If you had a list of all the motorists who get a speeding ticket every 5,000 miles and a list of those who get speeding tickets every 20,000 miles, the first group is likely to be more dangerous than the other, notwithstanding the fact that there might be individual outliers for whom the general rule does not hold.

After all, Parliament has legislated for a totting ban after 12 points, this is presumably because a view was taken that those who rack enough offences in a relatively short period of time should be taken off the road for a period.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Spandex
post Sat, 28 Sep 2019 - 14:03
Post #46


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 972
Joined: 9 Oct 2016
Member No.: 87,665



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 28 Sep 2019 - 13:20) *
You can make general assumptions. If you had a list of all the motorists who get a speeding ticket every 5,000 miles and a list of those who get speeding tickets every 20,000 miles, the first group is likely to be more dangerous than the other, notwithstanding the fact that there might be individual outliers for whom the general rule does not hold.

After all, Parliament has legislated for a totting ban after 12 points, this is presumably because a view was taken that those who rack enough offences in a relatively short period of time should be taken off the road for a period.

Absolutely. But you can’t apply those general assumptions to individuals and expect them to remain accurate. So you can’t say that “someone who racks up a couple of speeding tickets within 5000 miles is more dangerous than someone who gets two speeding fines in 20000”.

You could possibly say that someone who gets a couple of tickets within 5000 miles is statistically more likely to be more dangerous, although until someone digs out the actual stats I’m not sure I’d even be willing to go that far.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Guest_Charlie1010_*
post Sat, 28 Sep 2019 - 15:32
Post #47





Guests






Here is a debate.
Physics do change.
https://motorbikewriter.com/motorcycles-corner-better-cars/

Noise is also a consideration with regards speed limits.

http://www.ukna.org.uk/uploads/4/1/4/5/414...affic_noise.pdf

Al says:
23rd February, 2017 at 6:04 pm
There are a couple of discrepancies in how a formula one car or similar and a super bike can handle a corner as opposed to a sports car and a street bike.
On a racetrack cars can go ten tenths or even Evelyn tenths because they aren’t as likely to have a catastrophic accident as a bike if it looses grip often even when a car has an off it can rejoin the race and occasionally still go on to win. When a bike goes off 999999 times out of 100000 it’s game over so even the most committed rider will usually keep it under ten tenths.
Most skilled riders can still out pace a sports car because the effective grip of the tyres is closer and a bikes mass is lower and it is very rare that you find a car driver with even half the skill and commitment of a rider. But beware of the looneys who become instant race drivers when they get behind the wheel.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Spandex
post Sat, 28 Sep 2019 - 15:58
Post #48


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 972
Joined: 9 Oct 2016
Member No.: 87,665



QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Sat, 28 Sep 2019 - 16:32) *

You do realise that article agrees that cars will corner faster, right?

The main reason the difference is more obvious on a track is that a lot of the other variables are removed - race car vs race bike, professional driver vs professional rider, equal levels of commitment, etc. It’s not because the physics changes.

The fact that a biker is more likely to be an ‘enthusiast’ who uses a bike because they enjoy the performance and enjoys pressing on probably leads to the false impression that bikes can corner faster. After all, if you regularly leave cars far behind, even on twisty roads, you might start imagining it’s because they simply can’t keep up. But that’s a bit like me ‘beating’ a Ferrari in a traffic light Grand Prix and convincing myself that he was definitely trying as hard as I was, and my 3 Series estate is actually a supercar-slayer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Guest_Charlie1010_*
post Sun, 29 Sep 2019 - 06:45
Post #49





Guests






Read the comments especially this one.
The article is vague. The debate is in the comments.
It’s to do with rider ability vs car driver ability.
So you need to consider that as well and not just G forces.


Most skilled riders can still out pace a sports car because the effective grip of the tyres is closer and a bikes mass is lower and it is very rare that you find a car driver with even half the skill and commitment of a rider. But beware of the looneys who become instant race drivers when they get behind the wheel.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mayhem007
post Sun, 29 Sep 2019 - 09:08
Post #50


Member
Group Icon

Group: Life Member
Posts: 1,668
Joined: 9 Nov 2008
From: Doldrums
Member No.: 23,903



Gravity and spoilers will disagree with the theory of Mass wink.gif



--------------------
STAND UP FOR YOURSELF OR YOU WILL FALL FOR ANYTHING

Ultracrepadarion - A person who offers an opinion on a subject they know nothing about.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Spandex
post Sun, 29 Sep 2019 - 09:09
Post #51


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 972
Joined: 9 Oct 2016
Member No.: 87,665



QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Sun, 29 Sep 2019 - 07:45) *
Read the comments especially this one.
The article is vague. The debate is in the comments.
It’s to do with rider ability vs car driver ability.
So you need to consider that as well and not just G forces.


Most skilled riders can still out pace a sports car because the effective grip of the tyres is closer and a bikes mass is lower and it is very rare that you find a car driver with even half the skill and commitment of a rider. But beware of the looneys who become instant race drivers when they get behind the wheel.

So, just to be clear, your whole ‘point’ is that a skilled rider is faster than an unskilled car driver, and therefore bikes corner better than cars? I don’t even know where to start with that..

As for “effective grip of the tyres is closer” - closer to what? And the bikes mass is lower? That doesn’t even mean anything. Is it supposed to be ‘centre of mass?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mike5100
post Sun, 29 Sep 2019 - 10:30
Post #52


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 162
Joined: 16 Jun 2019
Member No.: 104,319



QUOTE (Spandex @ Sun, 29 Sep 2019 - 10:09) *
QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Sun, 29 Sep 2019 - 07:45) *
Read the comments especially this one.
The article is vague. The debate is in the comments.
It’s to do with rider ability vs car driver ability.
So you need to consider that as well and not just G forces.


Most skilled riders can still out pace a sports car because the effective grip of the tyres is closer and a bikes mass is lower and it is very rare that you find a car driver with even half the skill and commitment of a rider. But beware of the looneys who become instant race drivers when they get behind the wheel.

So, just to be clear, your whole ‘point’ is that a skilled rider is faster than an unskilled car driver, and therefore bikes corner better than cars? I don’t even know where to start with that..

As for “effective grip of the tyres is closer” - closer to what? And the bikes mass is lower? That doesn’t even mean anything. Is it supposed to be ‘centre of mass?

Sorry Charlie but I agree with Spandex. My recent experience as a reasonably skilled rider versus a UPS van driver was very sobering. I could reverse your argument and say Transit vans corner faster than motorbikes.
Interesting though this discussion may be - it's now a long way from the fairness or otherwise of V5C errors of omission being punished so severely.
Mike
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Guest_Charlie1010_*
post Tue, 1 Oct 2019 - 15:30
Post #53





Guests






Years of experience riding with friends in support vehicles is what I based my argument on.
All skilled vehicle users.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TonyS
post Tue, 1 Oct 2019 - 18:27
Post #54


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,214
Joined: 24 Mar 2013
From: Scotland
Member No.: 60,732



I expect that some of what you observe is to do with comfort rather than vehicle capability. In my case I certainly don't feel I should throwing my passengers around or forcing them to cling on in order to stay in their seats. Taking some fairly random figures a 0.7g turn is the equivalent to tipping the vehicle over by 45 degrees in terms of the sideways force. On a motorcycle the force is just felt as more downwards pressure. I'll let someone else give the figure, for 0.7g I think that's a 35 degree lean.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
andy_foster
post Tue, 1 Oct 2019 - 19:04
Post #55


Member
Group Icon

Group: Life Member
Posts: 24,213
Joined: 9 Sep 2004
From: Reading
Member No.: 1,624



QUOTE (TonyS @ Tue, 1 Oct 2019 - 19:27) *
On a motorcycle the force is just felt as more downwards pressure. I'll let someone else give the figure, for 0.7g I think that's a 35 degree lean.


Wouldn't that depend on the speed of the bike?


--------------------
Andy

Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Wed, 2 Oct 2019 - 06:57
Post #56


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 56,198
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



QUOTE (andy_foster @ Tue, 1 Oct 2019 - 20:04) *
QUOTE (TonyS @ Tue, 1 Oct 2019 - 19:27) *
On a motorcycle the force is just felt as more downwards pressure. I'll let someone else give the figure, for 0.7g I think that's a 35 degree lean.


Wouldn't that depend on the speed of the bike?

Nope, not at all. I'll let you think why, I know you're smart enough.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Spandex
post Wed, 2 Oct 2019 - 07:32
Post #57


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 972
Joined: 9 Oct 2016
Member No.: 87,665



QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Tue, 1 Oct 2019 - 16:30) *
Years of experience riding with friends in support vehicles is what I based my argument on.
All skilled vehicle users.

A car can corner at a higher speed than a bike. This is simply a scientific fact.

This doesn’t mean that a car WILL corner at a higher speed than a bike, because the person riding/driving chooses what speed they corner at (within the limits of the vehicle), right? But we are talking about the physical capability of the vehicle.

So whilst I’m sure your personal experience is fascinating to someone, it is not relevant to the question of which corners faster because it includes too many unknowns and variables to make any meaningful comparison possible.

This post has been edited by Spandex: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 - 07:33
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Guest_Charlie1010_*
post Wed, 2 Oct 2019 - 07:56
Post #58





Guests






I meant to say comfortably.
Avoiding the car being in scrambled egg mode.
Of course you can drive a car fast but it’s not going to be a smooth ride.

With counter steering bike riding can be quick and smooth.
The UPS driver may well have issues with damaged goods.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TonyS
post Wed, 2 Oct 2019 - 11:28
Post #59


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,214
Joined: 24 Mar 2013
From: Scotland
Member No.: 60,732



QUOTE (andy_foster @ Tue, 1 Oct 2019 - 20:04) *
QUOTE (TonyS @ Tue, 1 Oct 2019 - 19:27) *
On a motorcycle the force is just felt as more downwards pressure. I'll let someone else give the figure, for 0.7g I think that's a 35 degree lean.

Wouldn't that depend on the speed of the bike?

That will be the lean angle for a 0.7 g turn. The acceleration (the 0.7g) depends on the speed and the radius, so you could reach that figure at high speed on a gentle curve, or at a much lower speed if the curve was tighter. Just for fun I worked it through for 0.5g which is probably more likely. In a car the occupants would feel a force equal to 1/2 their weight trying to push them sideways in or out of their seat. Actually a little more as the car will lean the "wrong way". On a motorcyle in the same turn you'd be leaning around 26 degrees, and the affect on rider is just 12% of their weight, acting directly down onto the seat.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V  < 1 2 3
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 16:44
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here