PCN when using a machine ticket AND Ringo Options

[us01]

Hi Guys
This is my first time posting on this, I would really appreciate if someone could help me out (and if i need to post more information in regards to something please let me know).

Essentially the order of events was as follows:
- I used the machine to get a 30min free display ticket for my car
- When the time had expired, I was too far away to walk back so I used the Ringo app to purchase another 30min stay (note this cost 12p because of service fees)
- When i got back to the car I saw a council parking ticket (which I will attach a screenshot of), and this was given for the time I used the Ringo app, and not the initial display ticket time.
This was a PCN by the London Borough of Redbridge.
It essentially says:
Parked with payment made to extend the stay beyond the initial time.
Contravention code 07.
Then just the basics about time, vehicle, cost etc.

I think this is very sneaky by the warden, but do you feel there are grounds to appeal here?
Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks

(EDIT: I am unable to post the attachment of the front and back. Can anyone offer assistance please?)

This post has been edited by us01: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 14:20

[Advertisement]

[hcandersen]

The system is flawed because P&D and RingGo operate separately. And a motorist is allowed to use either or in combination. That either on its own isn’t flawed is not my argument, it’s when they’re used together that the wheels fall off.

IMO, if topping up is allowed within either system then it cannot be the correct contravention.

[us01]

So I've managed to get the details of what it says on the machine:
Charge Times: Monday to Saturday 8:30am - 6:30pm

Up to

30 Minutes

8:30am - 6:30pm

Free

1 Hour

8:30am - 6:30pm

£1.50

2 Hours

8:30am - 6:30pm

£3.00

Maximum Stay: 2 Hours.

Extendable: Up to Maximum stay.

SMS reminder charge: 6p

SMS summary charge: 6p

Last tariff update 07 February 2018

Allows Vehicle(s) Car

Advance Parking: X

Postcode:

Location type: On street

Unable to post a pic for some reason but I'll keep trying.

[DancingDad]

Extendable: Up to Maximum stay.

Topping up cannot be a contravention with those words on the machine.

Use a free pic hosting site such as flikr...post the links back here.

[hcandersen]

As I posted, they’ve set out clear limits on their website and no doubt in policies, their problem is that it’s not conveyed on the machine or sign.

OP, what are the tariff options using RingGo?

[us01]

If I type the zone I want to park in on Ringo, I get the options for 30min,1hr and 2hrs. Same price as if you were pay on the machine, but at 12p service fee.

[cp8759]

Please upload a pic of the machine to imgur.com and post a link.

[us01]

These are the pictures guys. No mention of any T&Cs that I saw. Just the costs etc

I've also just realised, why couldn't I just appeal with the Ringo receipt, stating that it was the only purchase I made? Because there have been no pictures shown to me with the display ticket on the inside of my windshield.

[nextdoor]

I've also just realised, why couldn't I just appeal with the Ringo receipt, stating that it was the only purchase I made?

a) because that would be a lie and
b) there are almost certainly council photos of your windscreen which would demonstrate that lie.

Have you checked the councils website for their photo evidence?

[us01]

Ah yes they have that evidence on their site. I'll fight this the right way

[DancingDad]

Extendable: Up to Maximum stay.

Topping up cannot be a contravention with those words on the machine.

Use a free pic hosting site such as flikr...post the links back here.

So where did the words Extendable: Up to Maximum Stay come from ?
Can't see them on the machine ?

[hcandersen]

+1

AND OP, when you thought you’d transposed all the details regarding the tariff (post #22) you omitted: ‘FREE 30 minute ticket(ONCE only).

This is why we need pics and docs, OPs always omit something - it happens.

It is clearly counterintuitive that purchasing additional parking time up to the maximum allowed is not permissible because this would lose them revenue.

Anyway, back to the 30 minutes and RingGo.

OP, as regards the machine the motorist has a choice: to press the green button without inserting any money to obtain the 30-minute ticket i.e. the driver has to elect either for 30 mins or longer time knowing there’s a condition of ONCE only. Is there any such reference with RingGo?

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 15:04

[stamfordman]

Ringgo at that location just gives the choice of 30 min, 1 hour or 2 hour slots. As the OP says, 30 min gives just a fee of 12p and no parking cost.. 1 hour is £1.62, and that of course is what the OP should have selected and would hopefully have been OK during the grace period.

[us01]

No such reference on Ringo andersen. Just shows the option for 30min, 1hr or 2hrs. No mention of ONLY ONCE.

[cp8759]

Extendable: Up to Maximum stay.

Topping up cannot be a contravention with those words on the machine.

Use a free pic hosting site such as flikr...post the links back here.

So where did the words Extendable: Up to Maximum Stay come from ?
Can't see them on the machine ?

+1, where does it say this?

As for making stuff up, remember making false representations is a criminal offence for which you can be prosecuted in the Magistrates' Court, PCNs are annoying but it's probably not worth risking a criminal record.

[us01]

Sure, apologies for that. I googled the sign post and thats where I get the Extendable part from.
It looks as if this isn't worth an appeal then?

[hcandersen]

The complete opposite.

The contravention given is wrong, IMO. At worst (for you) you parked without payment of the parking charge, therefore the given contravention did not occur, and at best you obtained a permissible 30 minutes’ free parking, so no contravention there either.

But steel yourself to them rejecting, they do this out of habit and ignorance. Therefore the likely scenario is that the registered keeper would receive a NTO in about 6-8 weeks. Are you the registered keeper?

[DancingDad]

The complete opposite.

The contravention given is wrong, IMO. At worst (for you) you parked without payment of the parking charge, therefore the given contravention did not occur, and at best you obtained a permissible 30 minutes’ free parking, so no contravention there either.

But steel yourself to them rejecting, they do this out of habit and ignorance. Therefore the likely scenario is that the registered keeper would receive a NTO in about 6-8 weeks. Are you the registered keeper?

Plus 1.
While not mentioning anything allowing topping up, not prohibiting it allows the driver to assume that topping up is allowed.
Coupled with the silly that Ringo happily allows the 30 minutes with no issue, the contravention is simply wrong.
They should have used parked without payment or overstaying but cannot enforce this PCN on what they should have used.

[stamfordman]

Coupled with the silly that Ringo happily allows the 30 minutes with no issue,

I think we're asking too much for Ringgo to be programmed to ask if you had already bought a physical P&D ticket.

As I initially said the contravention is wrong so we're agreed on that.

OP - post a draft challenge here first.

[us01]

I am the registered keeper yes.
So in this draft shall I simply base it around the fact the wrong contravention code is given? I'll try find some examples from the forums.

[us01]

So I've used a template I have spotted on the forum together with what has been mentioned above:
Re PCN number: xxx

I appeal and dispute your parking ticket, as the registered keeper of the vehicle.

I firmly believe the contravention cited on the PCN is incorrect, as I didn’t extend the time, instead bought a new ticket, albeit through Ringo.
Additionally, while not mentioning anything allowing to top up, not prohibiting it allows the driver to assume that topping up is permissible. Together with the flawed Ringo system that happily allows the 30min with no issue, the contravention is simply wrong. You cannot enforce this PCN on this contravention.
(Shall I also add “The contravention if anything, at worst, should have been parked without payment of the parking charge, therefore the cited contravention never occurred, and at best I obtained a permissible 30mins parking, so no contravention there either)

Should you fail to cancel this PCN, I require with your rejection letter, all images taken of this vehicle & the signs at the location that day. Do not withhold any images or data later relied on for POPLA/court.


How does this feel?