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FightBack Forums _ Speeding and other Criminal Offences _ Accuracy of speed cameras

Posted by: Blue23 Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 21:00
Post #1372497

Hi all, I’m new here so please excuse any stupidity in terms of my questions. smile.gif

I have today received a NIP stating I was doing 91mph on a dual carriage way at the end of May. Now, I don’t dispute that I was speeding and am an absoltue idiot for doing so no excuses! However I know for a fact that I was not doing 91mph purely because i looked at my speedometer as soon as I turned the bend and saw thee van and saw it between 80-85. So my question is how accurate are these cameras? Could my own speedometer be out by that much? I no I am wrong for speeding, my own fault for being distracted and tired. No excuses at all and I understand I need to pay a fine and receive points buy after research the 91 puts me into the next bracket according to new legislation. Now that would mean I was being further penalised.

Any advice grateful appreciated, very confused on how to proceed. I currrently don’t have any points and have New driving for 5 years. Thanks

Posted by: southpaw82 Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 21:19
Post #1372502

"I wasn’t going that fast" vs an approved device isn’t going to cut it, I’m afraid.

Posted by: Blue23 Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 21:35
Post #1372503

Thanks for your reply but that wasn’t my question. My question was in regards to the accuracy vs my Speedo! It’s not an excuse it’s a question. Have there been instances where the camera is wrong? I have a very old Fiat Punto, I doubt it’s even capable of that speed.

Posted by: Jlc Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 21:37
Post #1372504

End of May?


Posted by: southpaw82 Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 21:40
Post #1372505

QUOTE (Blue23 @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 22:35) *
Thanks for your reply but that wasn’t my question.


Think it was - a court will trust their device more than your recollection of what your speedo says.

Posted by: Blue23 Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 21:42
Post #1372506

QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 22:37) *
End of May?


Sorry, March. My mistake

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 22:40) *
QUOTE (Blue23 @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 22:35) *
Thanks for your reply but that wasn’t my question.


Think it was - a court will trust their device more than your recollection of what your speedo says.


Exactly. THEIR device.

Posted by: southpaw82 Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 21:50
Post #1372509

QUOTE (Blue23 @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 22:42) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 22:40) *
QUOTE (Blue23 @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 22:35) *
Thanks for your reply but that wasn’t my question.


Think it was - a court will trust their device more than your recollection of what your speedo says.


Exactly. THEIR device.

Don’t follow you... it’s a device owned and operated by the police authority - who else would it be?

Posted by: peterguk Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 21:52
Post #1372511

The device used to measure your speed, is in law, deemed to be working correctly.

If you wish to challenge it's accuracy, you'll need to convince the court the measured speed is incorrect - how will you do that?

Also, chances are, you were spotted and speed measured way before you saw the van.

Posted by: Jlc Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 21:57
Post #1372512

The outcome for 80mph or 91mph is the same - 3 points £100. (Ignoring awareness course which wouldn’t be offered at 91mph)

You'll have a costly time at court unless you have something to disprove their approved device.

In the first instance, ask for a photo to assist in the identification of the driver. They usually supply but it doesn’t stop the 28 days to nominate the driver. They may send the 'money shot' to confirm the ping.

It is more likely you slowed after seeing the van and then looked at your speedo.

Speedo's will over read true speed. I would expect you had at least 95mph on it. Remember they can ping you at very long distances (up to 1km normally) so you may have been caught before you realised. (Unless you have changed the wheels by a significant margin)

If you have a sat nav you should be able to check how accurate your speedo is. (They are fairly accurate at steady speeds)

Posted by: Blue23 Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 22:02
Post #1372513

Thank you all for your help! I was coming round a bend so the camera wouldn’t have got the picture before unless they can see around bends now? According to new laws 91 would be deemed band b which is 4-6 points!

I do have a satnav which said 83. This adds to the confusion. Sorry I didn’t no they were classed as accurate or I would have mentioned that.

Posted by: peterguk Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 22:07
Post #1372514

QUOTE (Blue23 @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 23:02) *
According to new laws 91 would be deemed band b which is 4-6 points!


As mentioned, you should be offered a CoFP - 3 points and £100 fine.

Posted by: Blue23 Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 22:08
Post #1372518

QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 23:07) *
QUOTE (Blue23 @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 23:02) *
According to new laws 91 would be deemed band b which is 4-6 points!


As mentioned, you should be offered a CoFP - 3 points and £100 fine.


Sorry I’m new to this, what’s a CoFP?

Posted by: peterguk Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 22:09
Post #1372519

QUOTE (Blue23 @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 23:08) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 23:07) *
QUOTE (Blue23 @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 23:02) *
According to new laws 91 would be deemed band b which is 4-6 points!


As mentioned, you should be offered a CoFP - 3 points and £100 fine.


Sorry I’m new to this, what’s a CoFP?


Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty.

Posted by: Jlc Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 22:09
Post #1372520

There are no new laws - the sentencing guidelines were updated.

But you won’t be going to court unless you want it to.

As you admit speeding then it seems folly. Ask for the pictures first...

Posted by: Blue23 Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 22:16
Post #1372524

Yes I was speeding I fully take responsibility. Again please excuse my ignorance but why should I ask for pictures?

QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 23:09) *
QUOTE (Blue23 @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 23:08) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 23:07) *
QUOTE (Blue23 @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 23:02) *
According to new laws 91 would be deemed band b which is 4-6 points!


As mentioned, you should be offered a CoFP - 3 points and £100 fine.


Sorry I’m new to this, what’s a CoFP?


Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty.


Thank you so much

Posted by: Logician Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 23:20
Post #1372530

QUOTE (Blue23 @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 23:16) *
Again please excuse my ignorance but why should I ask for pictures?


Only to see the speed reading and that the camera was being pointed at your car, not another vehicle as you doubt the speed alleged.


Posted by: Jlc Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 07:13
Post #1372549

QUOTE (Logician @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 00:20) *
QUOTE (Blue23 @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 23:16) *
Again please excuse my ignorance but why should I ask for pictures?


Only to see the speed reading and that the camera was being pointed at your car, not another vehicle as you doubt the speed alleged.

Indeed - it's the possibility of getting 'evidence' as your next chance would be at court pleading not guilty for disclosure. (The fixed penalty will be off the table then)

Posted by: The Rookie Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 09:33
Post #1372572

Going to court and successfully arguing you were only doing 85 and not the 91 alleged (even if you succeed, and that’s far from a given) will result in a harsher penalty than the fixed penalty you are almost certain to be offered.

You can not plead not guilty to the offence of speeding (the actual speed only determines the punishment) as you’ve admitted it, so you’d be left pleading guilty and arguing the facts. Really doesn’t seem worth the effort, if you lose that argument you will suffer an even harsher penalty and costs are likely to be higher as well.

Posted by: Blue23 Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 09:51
Post #1372575

QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 08:13) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 00:20) *
QUOTE (Blue23 @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 23:16) *
Again please excuse my ignorance but why should I ask for pictures?


Only to see the speed reading and that the camera was being pointed at your car, not another vehicle as you doubt the speed alleged.

Indeed - it's the possibility of getting 'evidence' as your next chance would be at court pleading not guilty for disclosure. (The fixed penalty will be off the table then)


So if I ask for pictures will that mean I forfeit the fixed penalty? I’m just worried after reading these articles online that suggest penalties would be 4-6 points and a fine of up to 100% of my wage, is that not always the case?

Posted by: Jlc Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 10:01
Post #1372578

QUOTE (Blue23 @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 10:51) *
So if I ask for pictures will that mean I forfeit the fixed penalty?

No, but you can only ask prior to naming the driver.

QUOTE (Blue23 @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 10:51) *
I’m just worried after reading these articles online that suggest penalties would be 4-6 points and a fine of up to 100% of my wage, is that not always the case?

Fixed penalties would normally be offered up to 95mph. The 4-6 points is only if it goes to court (and there's no reason why it should).

Posted by: Blue23 Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 10:07
Post #1372580

QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 11:01) *
QUOTE (Blue23 @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 10:51) *
So if I ask for pictures will that mean I forfeit the fixed penalty?

No, but you can only ask prior to naming the driver.

QUOTE (Blue23 @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 10:51) *
I’m just worried after reading these articles online that suggest penalties would be 4-6 points and a fine of up to 100% of my wage, is that not always the case?

Fixed penalties would normally be offered up to 95mph. The 4-6 points is only if it goes to court (and there's no reason why it should).


Thank you all so much,, you have all been so helpful. I don’t want to annoy the ‘nice fixed penalty people’ by asking for the picture, so I will just send back the NIP and hope they don’t feel the need to fine me any higher! Thanks again

Posted by: Kickaha Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 10:55
Post #1372588

QUOTE (Blue23 @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 10:07) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 11:01) *
QUOTE (Blue23 @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 10:51) *
So if I ask for pictures will that mean I forfeit the fixed penalty?

No, but you can only ask prior to naming the driver.

QUOTE (Blue23 @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 10:51) *
I’m just worried after reading these articles online that suggest penalties would be 4-6 points and a fine of up to 100% of my wage, is that not always the case?

Fixed penalties would normally be offered up to 95mph. The 4-6 points is only if it goes to court (and there's no reason why it should).


Thank you all so much,, you have all been so helpful. I don’t want to annoy the ‘nice fixed penalty people’ by asking for the picture, so I will just send back the NIP and hope they don’t feel the need to fine me any higher! Thanks again

They cannot fine you more or give you more points, all they can do is refer it to court. There is no reason in this case for them to do that.

Posted by: Logician Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 10:58
Post #1372589

There does seem no reason to ask for the pictures other than to satisfy yourself, but adverse consequences are very unlikely.

Posted by: Blue23 Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 12:02
Post #1372602

Ok. Thank you all smile.gif

Posted by: notmeatloaf Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 16:42
Post #1372643

To answer your original question the device itself is highly accurate in that it would have measured something at 91mph. The inaccuracies come from either

The fact that the beam diverges as it leaves the gun and if there is more than one speed returned it has to "guess" which is the right one - normally the strongest return. However, especially if you are next to a large vehicle like a van there is the chance that the gun will choose the wrong vehicle.

The fact that the device is manually aligned and, especially across large distances, the alignment can be off so that even though the crosshairs/superimposed dot in the gun scope appear to be on your vehicle, they are actually on a different vehicle.

A "slip" error where the operator drags the gun down the side of a vehicle leading to an inaccurate speed reading.

The police will tell you they have trained operators who are practically infallible. There are enough videos around to show that the errors do happen in real life. Unfortunately normally the only way of proving these is to get the entire video so you can spot discrepancies on other vehicles. The police normally make it very difficult to actually obtain the full video to prove this though.

In practical terms SP is exactly right, it is only worth worrying about if you either weren't speeding, or there was a big enough discrepancy to significantly affect the sentencing. The risk and hassle to run a successful Newton plea to get your speed down to 80mph and then pay a larger fine, costs and victim surcharge means it would only be worthwhile if you bang your head against a brick wall in your spare time.

Posted by: andy_foster Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 21:57
Post #1372709

QUOTE (Blue23 @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 22:00) *
Hi all, I’m new here so please excuse any stupidity in terms of my questions. smile.gif


As Mr Garrison, famously said, "there are no stupid questions"...

QUOTE
I have today received a NIP stating I was doing 91mph on a dual carriage way at the end of May. Now, I don’t dispute that I was speeding and am an absoltue idiot for doing so no excuses! However I know for a fact that I was not doing 91mph purely because i looked at my speedometer as soon as I turned the bend and saw thee van and saw it between 80-85. So my question is how accurate are these cameras?


You seem to have beaten me to the punchline. However, the obvious answer is that your question is simply utterly irrelevant for the reasons others have already given. The fixed penalty that you will be offered is the same for both speeds. As you "know for a fact" that you were not doing that speed, then clearly the camera must have been inaccurate, but I very much dount that you would be able to persuade anyone other than yourself of that "fact".

QUOTE
Could my own speedometer be out by that much?


Anything is possible. You would be committing a construction and use offence if your speedo was under-reading. However, it seems far more likely that your assessment that you are an idiot is correct than that your speedo actually is under-reading. The easiest way to test it would be to compare it to the speed displayed on a sat-nav.

QUOTE
I no I am wrong for speeding, my own fault for being distracted and tired. No excuses at all and I understand I need to pay a fine and receive points buy after research the 91 puts me into the next bracket according to new legislation. Now that would mean I was being further penalised.


As has been stated, your understanding is flawed (not helped by the deliberately misleading headlines in the mass media).

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 10:33) *
You can not plead not guilty to the offence of speeding (the actual speed only determines the punishment) as you’ve admitted it


Whilst I do not think it is prudent for the OP to plead not guilty, I am slightly concerned that there appears to be a significant gap in my own understanding of the law pertaining to the prohibition of persons admitting to an offence on an online forum from pleading not guilty.

Posted by: 122basy Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 10:56
Post #1372759

QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 22:57) *
...
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 10:33) *
You can not plead not guilty to the offence of speeding (the actual speed only determines the punishment) as you’ve admitted it


Whilst I do not think it is prudent for the OP to plead not guilty, I am slightly concerned that there appears to be a significant gap in my own understanding of the law pertaining to the prohibition of persons admitting to an offence on an online forum from pleading not guilty.

A sudden moral issue perhaps.

Posted by: southpaw82 Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 12:31
Post #1372800

QUOTE (122basy @ Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 11:56) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 22:57) *
...
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 10:33) *
You can not plead not guilty to the offence of speeding (the actual speed only determines the punishment) as you’ve admitted it


Whilst I do not think it is prudent for the OP to plead not guilty, I am slightly concerned that there appears to be a significant gap in my own understanding of the law pertaining to the prohibition of persons admitting to an offence on an online forum from pleading not guilty.

A sudden moral issue perhaps.

Your mileage may differ but there’s no issue with putting the prosecution to proof (not that I think it’d be worth it here). "Golden thread" and all that.

Posted by: 122basy Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 15:03
Post #1372847

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 13:31) *
QUOTE (122basy @ Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 11:56) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 22:57) *
...
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 7 Apr 2018 - 10:33) *
You can not plead not guilty to the offence of speeding (the actual speed only determines the punishment) as you’ve admitted it


Whilst I do not think it is prudent for the OP to plead not guilty, I am slightly concerned that there appears to be a significant gap in my own understanding of the law pertaining to the prohibition of persons admitting to an offence on an online forum from pleading not guilty.

A sudden moral issue perhaps.

Your mileage may differ but there’s no issue with putting the prosecution to proof (not that I think it’d be worth it here). "Golden thread" and all that.

It's not unreasonable at all for the prosecution to prove the offence. laugh.gif It's up to the OP, who knows he committed the offence, to make the decision to have the prosecution prove the matter. As we all know it's not unheard of for the prosecution to err...just a gamble for the OP that they will after he says "not guilty" to something he knows he's done. It may offend some people's morals, others not.
I have to admit I am somewhat surprised it appears to offend MrRookie. smile.gif

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