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County Court Appearance looming with Gladstones (UK CPM)
Foodle Bird
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 18:43
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I am acting on behalf of my daughter. She was issued with a PCN via post for parking on Private Property on land managed by UK Car Park Management Ltd back in Nov 2016.

This has been passed over to Gladstones, but she has ignored all correspondence from them. We then received a Notice of Allocation to the Small Claims Track. This document stated that the Parking charge was "incurred" on a date in mid November.
In fact the PCN states that it was early November but was actually issued in mid November.
This confusion of dates about what actually happened was filed as a defence.

The court appearance is in a week and I am not sure that we have a great case - if any. The original fine was £100 or £60 if paid early. They are now claiming £240.

My daughter just received a Witness Statement bundle from Gladstones via email at the end of Dec. They have corrected their error and clarified the correct dates in a Witness Statement. They have also slightly mis-spelt my daughter's name in the Claim document.

I would appreciate any advice on how or if we can better defend this claim.

Thanks

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post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 18:43
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emanresu
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 18:46
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Lets see the pics of the signs and the contract. These are the usual places where they have made "mistakes" as well as the usual crap of getting the claim/names wrong


--------------------
Where there is a claim - there is a counterclaim.
Are Parking companies misusing your personal data or interfering with your lease? Counterclaims are only £25. Makes them sit up and take notice. For leaseholds, join in the Managing agents too. Since the purpose of these claims is to frighten you, give them something to be frightened of.
Subject Access Requests to the DVLA?Find out who accessed your data and when. Try SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gsi.gov.uk. [Apologies if it does not work]
Double Dip / ANPR FaultsThe BPA Report on ANPR Double Dips is here. Ideal case for a counterclaim (see above).
Daily Court List. See who is doing what and where here
Printing and posting Witness Statements. Easy and cheap way DoxDirect
What is court like. A District Judge's view
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cabbyman
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 19:11
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Allocation to Small Claims Track? Court hearing next week???? This will be tough!!

What have you sent to the court as a defence?


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Cabbyman 8 PPCs 0
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unicorn47
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 21:10
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You should bring the question of the wrong dates to the attention of the court.

If the dates on the Particulars of Claim are wrong, they can't simply correct them on their Witness statement.

When you sign a POC you state that the facts are true.
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southpaw82
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 21:15
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QUOTE (unicorn47 @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 21:10) *
If the dates on the Particulars of Claim are wrong, they can't simply correct them on their Witness statement.


The court can simply allow them to be amended if it sees fit.

QUOTE
When you sign a POC you state that the facts are true.


Actually you state that you (or your client) believes them to be true. An innocent mistake is just that.


--------------------


Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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SchoolRunMum
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 00:09
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Read other cases won v UKCPM/Gladstones.

Here's one from today on MSE forum:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5695908

smile.gif
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Foodle Bird
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 17:10
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Thanks for the feedback do far. Here is the Parking sign.

Our defence was that the date they stated the Charge was incurred was wrong. They used the date of issue of the charge, not the date of the offence.
Attached File(s)
Attached File  UKPCM.pdf ( 690.1K ) Number of downloads: 42
 
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ostell
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 17:25
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That's a prohibiting sign there is no offer of an contract for parking to non authorised persons and therefore there can be no breach of contract and therefore it is trespass and only the land owner can claim for trespass. What they have issued is a penalty, which is not allowed.
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nosferatu1001
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 11:13
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Ok, so

- exactly what defence did you send?
- given the hearing is next week have you already sent them your WS? The court hearing date document will have told you to exchange documents X days before the hearing.

Your odds aren’t looking good, but if they’re chasing the Keeper and you HAVENT told them who drove (important!!!) then you can argue the most they can claim is the amount under pofa, which is amount on pcn plus court fees - so more like £200.
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SchoolRunMum
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 22:58
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Please tell us she has submitted her WS and evidence, like Gladstones did.

If not, then do it late like Publican Paul did:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...13246&st=20

...and it can still be won, like this person did too:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...12462&st=80

Don't panic but we are concerned that you have mentioned Gladstones WS as if it's a surprise, when in fact the letter giving the court date told BOTH SIDES to exchange Witness Statements and evidence (and file it all with the court too) not less than 14 days prior to the hearing...
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Foodle Bird
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 09:10
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We submitted our defence when the claim was made some months ago and it was sent to the Court and Gladstones. It was purely on the basis that the date was incorrect. There is no separate WS. I'm not sure what we would submit above and beyond what the actual defence is.

I appreciate that if I had discovered this forum sooner, we may be in a better situation, so right now I am relying on the errors as a way out. We have not declared who the driver was.
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ManxRed
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 10:36
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 17:25) *
That's a prohibiting sign there is no offer of an contract for parking to non authorised persons and therefore there can be no breach of contract and therefore it is trespass and only the land owner can claim for trespass. What they have issued is a penalty, which is not allowed.


This. That sign is incapable of forming a contract as there is no offer to non-permit holders. If no contract was formed then no breach occurred. You cannot contract with another entity to do something which is forbidden (i.e. no parking).

Were the signs referred to in your defence?


--------------------
Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 12:49
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QUOTE (Foodle Bird @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 10:10) *
We submitted our defence when the claim was made some months ago and it was sent to the Court and Gladstones. It was purely on the basis that the date was incorrect. There is no separate WS. I'm not sure what we would submit above and beyond what the actual defence is.

I appreciate that if I had discovered this forum sooner, we may be in a better situation, so right now I am relying on the errors as a way out. We have not declared who the driver was.

You MUST submit a witness statement AND any photos etc you are using as *evidence*
You MUST do so

A ws is a series of facts - you are the registered keeper of car x, on y date z activity occurred. That sort of thing. A defence is a set of legal arguments.

You MUST send this to the court AND to the claimant. SHow us your draft TODAY so you can print sign scan and email it ASAP
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emanresu
post Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 13:13
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How did it go?


--------------------
Where there is a claim - there is a counterclaim.
Are Parking companies misusing your personal data or interfering with your lease? Counterclaims are only £25. Makes them sit up and take notice. For leaseholds, join in the Managing agents too. Since the purpose of these claims is to frighten you, give them something to be frightened of.
Subject Access Requests to the DVLA?Find out who accessed your data and when. Try SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gsi.gov.uk. [Apologies if it does not work]
Double Dip / ANPR FaultsThe BPA Report on ANPR Double Dips is here. Ideal case for a counterclaim (see above).
Daily Court List. See who is doing what and where here
Printing and posting Witness Statements. Easy and cheap way DoxDirect
What is court like. A District Judge's view
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Foodle Bird
post Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 13:51
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Update

So we went to Court relying purely on our defence (mainly down to time, lack of knowledge etc.). Gladstone's sent a local rep.

We had various counters to their WS prepared, but we didn't even get to speak. Our Defence was summarised by the Judge which identified the fact the date was wrong as I had said previously.

The Rep had no answers to this and did not seem at all prepared, so the case was dismissed without us needing to speak.

The Judge's parting comment was "They've done it again haven't they Mr xxxxx"!

So we won the day. Thanks for all the advice - I am now better prepared if needed in the future and I now know where to come in a more timely manner.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 13:55
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great news!

Any chance you can give us name of judge, court etc?
Did you claim costs?
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emanresu
post Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 14:37
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QUOTE
The Judge's parting comment was "They've done it again haven't they Mr xxxxx"!


Hilarious


--------------------
Where there is a claim - there is a counterclaim.
Are Parking companies misusing your personal data or interfering with your lease? Counterclaims are only £25. Makes them sit up and take notice. For leaseholds, join in the Managing agents too. Since the purpose of these claims is to frighten you, give them something to be frightened of.
Subject Access Requests to the DVLA?Find out who accessed your data and when. Try SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gsi.gov.uk. [Apologies if it does not work]
Double Dip / ANPR FaultsThe BPA Report on ANPR Double Dips is here. Ideal case for a counterclaim (see above).
Daily Court List. See who is doing what and where here
Printing and posting Witness Statements. Easy and cheap way DoxDirect
What is court like. A District Judge's view
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