Red Light Camera Offence, Appealing Red Light Camera Offence |
Red Light Camera Offence, Appealing Red Light Camera Offence |
Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 15:39
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 4 Dec 2021 Member No.: 114,960 |
I ran a red light.
Seven Days latter I got an NIP. It has been a very troubled seven days and I still feel bad but in a way, it is better than not knowing what would happen. I was going down hill, the junction is literally at the bottom of the Hill. I saw amber and started applying the brakes, but because it snowed, the road was wet and the car started sliding. At about 5m to the white line, I was convinced the car would stop far after the white line. If that happened 1) I would Still get an NIP 2) Me and others in the Car would be at risk from oncoming cars going across. At that moment took my legs off the brakes and went across. I saw a flash. Seven Days latter, I got an NIP, the time was 1.6s If I had not applied the brakes at amber, I probably should have gotten through under 1s as the camera comes on 1s after the light turns red. Now this is my defence. 1) It was unsafe to stop as I explained 2) If the road wasn't slippery, I should have stopped before the white line, but that option was not under my control. 3) We need to understand that even after applying the brakes, there was still gravity pushing the car downhill, hence the reason why it was sliding. Factor Against Me. Since It recently snowed, I shouldn't be driving at the speed limit. That is the only factor I can think of. I haven't attended any course since I got my license, so I should qualify given that the time is under 3s. So What should I do? Should accept the NIP or Challenge it? |
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Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 15:39
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Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 14:08
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#41
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Member Group: Members Posts: 915 Joined: 1 Oct 2012 Member No.: 57,435 |
What kind of attitude do you expect from someone interested in challenging a decision? I would like to know; there is a chance I would adopt it to make you happy. Please rest assured that your attitude has absolutely no bearing on my happiness. I think most, if not all, on here would consider "don't go in front of the magistrates displaying the same attitude as you have on here and expect it to end well" as both pragmatic advice and helpful experience. However, you are, of course, free to disregard any and all advice received from the members of this forum - that is entirely your prerogative. |
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Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 14:28
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#42
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Member Group: Members Posts: 284 Joined: 1 Sep 2020 Member No.: 109,598 |
I called the number on the NIP, Q15 to be precise. I told them part of the car was over the white line on amber. They said fortunately, there is also a CCTV camera on that Junction and asked for the time of offence. I got a call back and they confirmed my story. She said she would forward the extra evidence and I would get a reply via the post in two days. ... When you get it, can you please show that camera evidence of your car crossing the stop line on amber rather than red? (You should have received it by tomorrow) Thanks |
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Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 15:18
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#43
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 4 Dec 2021 Member No.: 114,960 |
Nezxe answer this: if you lose will you come back and tell us? This is an anonymous platform, so to suggest that I am affected by anything I say or that is said here is absurd. I would wait for their reply tomorrow and see where it goes. Nezxe answer this: if you lose will you come back and tell us? Maybe you should have rephrased the question this way. If you WIN/LOSE will you come back and tell us? For me that neutrality is very important, so sorry I cannot answer that question. Win or lose, I am not obligated to provide the outcome. I called the number on the NIP, Q15 to be precise. I told them part of the car was over the white line on amber. They said fortunately, there is also a CCTV camera on that Junction and asked for the time of offence. I got a call back and they confirmed my story. She said she would forward the extra evidence and I would get a reply via the post in two days. ... When you get it, can you please show that camera evidence of your car crossing the stop line on amber rather than red? (You should have received it by tomorrow) Thanks NO. It is an anonymous platform, I won't be revealing sensitive details about this case. I don't know if I would be getting any camera evidence tomorrow, I assume they would maybe send a download link, I've not heard anything in that regard. I would get another letter tomorrow. There are certain people I want to hear from. People who have challenged similar decisions, knew people who did or are actually aware of or have studied cases by virtue of their profession. Great, that describes me. I think you’re virtually certain to be convicted and if you’re not it won’t be because of the defence you’re suggesting. Please give me some credit. I wasn't looking for "All the reasons" I would present on this platform. I was hoping people would share their experience and not just jump to conclusions. So far, that hasn't happened. There have been some helpful analysis and if and when it goes to court a lawyer would certainly present every evidence in my favour. At the moment that hasn't happened, so I don't know what they would be. |
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Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 15:32
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#44
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Member Group: Members Posts: 915 Joined: 1 Oct 2012 Member No.: 57,435 |
I was hoping people would share their experience and not just jump to conclusions. So far, that hasn't happened. As has already been explained to you by more than one person, nobody on here has got experience of your situation, as neatly summarised by Andy; To summarise, your argument is that you were driving perfectly legally as you were not exceeding the speed limit and therefore it's not your fault that you went through the lights on red because you were travelling too fast in the conditions to be able to stop, and you did not accelerate and it was not safe to stop. and if they did, they'd be gratefully accepting the offer of a course or a FPN, not proposing to spend thousands of pounds trying to defend that position in court. On this forum you get given honest opinions, not platitudes or false reassurances. |
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Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 15:33
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#45
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Nezxe answer this: if you lose will you come back and tell us? This is an anonymous platform, so to suggest that I am affected by anything I say or that is said here is absurd. I'll take that as no. You might say that what you say on here is not affected, but I suspect bruised ego will prevent you from coming to tell us what the fne is or how many points you've been given. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 15:50
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#46
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,864 Joined: 2 Aug 2016 Member No.: 86,040 |
I called the number on the NIP, Q15 to be precise. I told them part of the car was over the white line on amber. They said fortunately, there is also a CCTV camera on that Junction and asked for the time of offence. I got a call back and they confirmed my story. She said she would forward the extra evidence and I would get a reply via the post in two days. If whatever is provided shows that you started to traverse the light on amber that's a start. But it's not a defence to passing through at red. If any part of the car vehicle moves through it the offence is commited. |
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Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 16:31
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#47
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
There are certain people I want to hear from. People who have challenged similar decisions, knew people who did or are actually aware of or have studied cases by virtue of their profession. Great, that describes me. I think you’re virtually certain to be convicted and if you’re not it won’t be because of the defence you’re suggesting. Please give me some credit. I wasn't looking for "All the reasons" I would present on this platform. I was hoping people would share their experience and not just jump to conclusions. So far, that hasn't happened. There have been some helpful analysis and if and when it goes to court a lawyer would certainly present every evidence in my favour. At the moment that hasn't happened, so I don't know what they would be. I don’t understand. You said that you wanted an opinion from someone, inter alia, who is professionally able to give that opinion. I am and I did. That opinion can only be based on the information you give, so to turn around and discount that opinion because you don’t like it and to use the excuse that there are other factors to take into account is absurd. Quite frankly, it does not appear to me that you want any advice. You merely want people to agree with you regardless of their own opinion. That is not what this forum is for. You’re not the first person to do that and you won’t be the last but I have little patience for it, so you may well find your thread closed if it carries on as it has. Regardless, good luck with whatever you do. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 17:06
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#48
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Member Group: Members Posts: 634 Joined: 8 Dec 2012 Member No.: 58,778 |
Personally, I think there is possibly a defence but i can see that the magistrates might take some convincing.
If you get the CCTV of the crossroads I would recommend you post it here as this forum has lots of experts who will give impartial advice. Even if the CCTV does backup your recollection 100% I still think you’ll be relying on the DJ lottery. The most pragmatic approach would be to take a course or fixed penalty as your down side is limited to £100 and 3 points/an afternoon of your time. A recent speeding case where the driver was convinced they were innocent ended up costing the drive over £30k. If you are a gambler would you bet £100 at 10-1 on, on the toss of a coin as that is essentially what you are looking at. |
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Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 17:30
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#49
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,300 Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Member No.: 47,602 |
Personally, I think there is possibly a defence but i can see that the magistrates might take some convincing. If you get the CCTV of the crossroads I would recommend you post it here as this forum has lots of experts who will give impartial advice. Even if the CCTV does backup your recollection 100% I still think you’ll be relying on the DJ lottery. The most pragmatic approach would be to take a course or fixed penalty as your down side is limited to £100 and 3 points/an afternoon of your time. A recent speeding case where the driver was convinced they were innocent ended up costing the drive over £30k. If you are a gambler would you bet £100 at 10-1 on, on the toss of a coin as that is essentially what you are looking at. Would you care to share your thoughts on a "possible defence"? The OP is likely to get two still photos showing his car and the lights, not CCTV footage. |
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Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 18:11
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#50
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Member Group: Members Posts: 634 Joined: 8 Dec 2012 Member No.: 58,778 |
Well I was mostly writing that to get the op on side and I thought earlier in the thread the op said there was a CCTV camera. However if all they will get is 2 images, one showing the op straddling the line whist it’s on amber as the op claims, then for him to have been flashed by the camera 1.6 seconds into the red suggests a speed of about 10 mph or less. Therefore some magistrates maybe sympathetic to his case and also this casts doubt as to whether he actually crossed the line on red.
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Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 18:24
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#51
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,214 Joined: 24 Mar 2013 From: Scotland Member No.: 60,732 |
We don't know the actual junction involved here, or the exact camera. However don't they normally arm 1 second after the light goes Red, and detect pretty much right after the stop line? If that's the case here then the OP's vehicle had not reached the detector until 1.6 seconds after the lights changed. That seems difficult to square with the light still being Amber when the car started to cross the line.
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Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 18:31
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#52
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,074 Joined: 17 Nov 2015 Member No.: 80,686 |
We don't know the actual junction involved here, or the exact camera. However don't they normally arm 1 second after the light goes Red, and detect pretty much right after the stop line? If that's the case here then the OP's vehicle had not reached the detector until 1.6 seconds after the lights changed. That seems difficult to square with the light still being Amber when the car started to cross the line. A simple Google map location would tell us?............I'm struggling to visualise a slope so acute on a major enough road to have TLs which it seems would need a 4x4 with diff lock to ascend? |
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Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 19:02
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#53
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Member Group: Members Posts: 634 Joined: 8 Dec 2012 Member No.: 58,778 |
Also taking this right back to the beginning- OP where was this incident? Was it Scotland? And how many points do you currently have on your license?
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Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 19:21
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#54
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 4 Dec 2021 Member No.: 114,960 |
There are certain people I want to hear from. People who have challenged similar decisions, knew people who did or are actually aware of or have studied cases by virtue of their profession. Great, that describes me. I think you’re virtually certain to be convicted and if you’re not it won’t be because of the defence you’re suggesting. Please give me some credit. I wasn't looking for "All the reasons" I would present on this platform. I was hoping people would share their experience and not just jump to conclusions. So far, that hasn't happened. There have been some helpful analysis and if and when it goes to court a lawyer would certainly present every evidence in my favour. At the moment that hasn't happened, so I don't know what they would be. I don’t understand. You said that you wanted an opinion from someone, inter alia, who is professionally able to give that opinion. I am and I did. That opinion can only be based on the information you give, so to turn around and discount that opinion because you don’t like it and to use the excuse that there are other factors to take into account is absurd. Quite frankly, it does not appear to me that you want any advice. You merely want people to agree with you regardless of their own opinion. That is not what this forum is for. You’re not the first person to do that and you won’t be the last but I have little patience for it, so you may well find your thread closed if it carries on as it has. Regardless, good luck with whatever you do. You sound angry. Stop making assumptions on what I want. You said you are experienced but didn't share any experience. For instance I remember a certain case/incident or situation This is how similar it was to yours. The person challenged the decision. This was the outcome. As simple as that. Of course you understood that is what I wanted. Just so we are clear. I WANT TO HEAR THE STORIES OF OTHERS THAT HAVE CHALLENGED A SIMILAR DECISION. Not their judgement or opinions on my situation. That way I can independently come to a conclusion. Also taking this right back to the beginning- OP where was this incident? Was it Scotland? And how many points do you currently have on your license? Sorry I can't provide any sensitive information. We don't know the actual junction involved here, or the exact camera. However don't they normally arm 1 second after the light goes Red, and detect pretty much right after the stop line? If that's the case here then the OP's vehicle had not reached the detector until 1.6 seconds after the lights changed. That seems difficult to square with the light still being Amber when the car started to cross the line. A simple Google map location would tell us?............I'm struggling to visualise a slope so acute on a major enough road to have TLs which it seems would need a 4x4 with diff lock to ascend? It might just be failure of imagination. Lol. I can not provide any sensitive information. We don't know the actual junction involved here, or the exact camera. However don't they normally arm 1 second after the light goes Red, and detect pretty much right after the stop line? If that's the case here then the OP's vehicle had not reached the detector until 1.6 seconds after the lights changed. That seems difficult to square with the light still being Amber when the car started to cross the line. True. The operational word being "DIFFICULT". It is difficult but not impossible. Well I was mostly writing that to get the op on side and I thought earlier in the thread the op said there was a CCTV camera. However if all they will get is 2 images, one showing the op straddling the line whist it’s on amber as the op claims, then for him to have been flashed by the camera 1.6 seconds into the red suggests a speed of about 10 mph or less. Therefore some magistrates maybe sympathetic to his case and also this casts doubt as to whether he actually crossed the line on red. It is a very large junction, them ones with large square in the centre. Personally, I think there is possibly a defence but i can see that the magistrates might take some convincing. If you get the CCTV of the crossroads I would recommend you post it here as this forum has lots of experts who will give impartial advice. Even if the CCTV does backup your recollection 100% I still think you’ll be relying on the DJ lottery. The most pragmatic approach would be to take a course or fixed penalty as your down side is limited to £100 and 3 points/an afternoon of your time. A recent speeding case where the driver was convinced they were innocent ended up costing the drive over £30k. If you are a gambler would you bet £100 at 10-1 on, on the toss of a coin as that is essentially what you are looking at. I would take that into consideration. QUOTE I'll take that as no. You might say that what you say on here is not affected, but I suspect bruised ego will prevent you from coming to tell us what the fne is or how many points you've been given. It is an anonymous platform, I am sure you'll be a nicer person in real life. No hard feelings mate. What I choose to do is entirely up to me. I haven't decided yet on what to do, and don't want to make any promises on what I would or wouldn't do. This post has been edited by Nezxe: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 19:05 |
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Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 19:26
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#55
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,744 Joined: 29 Oct 2008 Member No.: 23,623 |
Just so we are clear. I WANT TO HEAR THE STORIES OF OTHERS THAT HAVE CHALLENGED A SIMILAR DECISION. I think you may be out of luck. I think you would have to search for quite a long time to find somebody who had experienced the circumstances you describe. Not their judgement or opinions on my situation. If you take this matter to court, it will be decided by people making a judgement on your situation, based on what you tell them (exactly as you have here). It is equally unlikely that any of them would have faced the situation you did. There are people on this forum who have made judgements on similar (thought I doubt identical) matters in court and others who have witnessed the proceedings and may have taken part in them (though not as defendants). I think that's the best you will get and you can take that advice or not. Making demands of what you want and don't want, of people giving their time freely is unlikely to endear you to their hearts. |
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Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 19:30
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#56
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,074 Joined: 17 Nov 2015 Member No.: 80,686 |
Sensitive information???!! FFS............
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Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 19:37
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#57
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
Enough of this waste of time.
-------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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